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 Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:06 am Post subject: XPN: Vicky Thompson |
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1
1 EXAMINATION UNDER OATH OF: MS. VICKY THOMPSON
2
3 TAKEN AT: Holiday Inn
4 1300 N. Central Expressway
5 McKinney, Texas 75070
6
7 TAKEN ON: February 16, 2000
8
9 TAKEN BY: MR. David A. Szwak
10 Bodenheimer, Jones, & Szwak
11 610 Marshall
12 Suite 905
13 Shreveport, LA 71101
14 (318) 424-1400
15 - and -
16 MR. RUSSELL VAN BEUSTRING
17 Attorney at Law
18 9525 Katy Freeway
19 Suite 415
20 Houston, Texas 77027
21 (713) 973-6650
22
23 REPORTED BY: Sunny Schaen, CSR, RPR
24
25
2
1 The Examination Under Oath of VICKY
2 THOMPSON was taken in question and answer form, by
3 Mr. David A. Szwak and Mr. Russell Van Beustring,
4 before Sunny Schaen, Certified Shorthand Reporter in
5 and for the State of Texas, on February 16, 2000,
6 commencing at 4:46 p.m., at the Holiday Inn, located at
7 1300 North Central Expressway, McKinney, Texas.
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1 EXAMINATION INDEX
2 VICKY THOMPSON EXAMINATION UNDER OATH PAGE
3 BY MR. Szwak . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
BY MR. BAN BEUSTRING . . . . . . . . . . . . 102
4
5 FURTHER EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. Szwak . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 111
7 SIGNATURE AND CHANGES . . . . . . . . . . . 119
8 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATION . . . . . . . . . . 120
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 VICKY THOMPSON,
3 having been first duly sworn, testified as follows:
4 EXAMINATION
5 BY MR. Szwak:
6 Q. Vicky, I'm David Szwak. We've previously
7 met. We're taking a recorded statement from you here
8 today in order to get some factual information from you
9 under oath.
10 And have you voluntarily appeared here
11 today?
12 A. Yes, I have.
13 Q. Could you tell the court reporter your full
14 name and address.
15 A. Vicky Thompson, V-i-c-k-y, T-h-o-m-p-s-o-n,
16 4507 County road 446, Princeton, Texas, 75407.
17 Q. How long have you lived there?
18 A. Eight years.
19 Q. Are you married?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you have children?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. How old are you currently?
24 A. I will be 55 in July.
25 Q. And where are you employed?
5
1 A. I'm not employed at this time.
2 Q. And have you in the past been employed by
3 Experian Information Solutions?
4 A. Yes, I have.
5 Q. And how long were you employed by Experian
6 Information Solutions?
7 A. Five years. Approximately five years.
8 Q. Now, Experian went through a change in the
9 company name. Tell me about the history of your
10 employment, first with TRW, then with Experian.
11 A. When I first went to work for TRW, I worked
12 with the credit file department. And the credit file
13 was a department that worked with the subscribers of
14 Experian. We pulled reports for them. We gave them
15 verbal scores over the phone on certain customers. We
16 assisted them in employment reports, collection
17 reports, various other types. And I did that for
18 approximately three years.
19 In approximately September of '97, we
20 were told that the company was breaking away from TRW
21 and that certain individuals that had worked at TRW for
22 the credit department were buying the credit section of
23 TRW. It then became Experian.
24 During that time, from approximately
25 September to December, there was quite a bit of
6
1 upheaval insofar as people being moved around,
2 departments being closed.
3 We found out at the end of October that a
4 company called Greater Universal Stores of England had
5 bought Experian. And in approximately January of '98,
6 I was switched over to NCAC, National Consumer
7 Assistance Center, and became a customer service rep
8 for their consumers.
9 Q. So in the beginning, you went to work for TRW,
10 say, roughly six years ago?
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. And for three years, you were in the
13 subscriber department, assisting subscribers with
14 various services. And then approximately September of
15 '97, there was a transition from TRW into Experian.
16 And you actually moved from the credit file department
17 to the NCAC division, right?
18 A. Right, exactly.
19 Q. Describe for me what is NCAC and where is it
20 located?
21 A. NCAC, as I stated, is the National Consumer
22 Assistant Center. It's located at 700 Experian Parkway
23 in Allen, Texas.
24 The primary responsibilities of the
25 center is to investigate and to help consumers with
7
1 their disputes, with fraud problems, with mixed file
2 problems.
3 Q. Now, there are different cities that house
4 different departments of Experian; is that correct?
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. Schaumburg, Illinois, is a subscriber
7 certification office; is that correct?
8 A. Yes. And they also now house the credit file
9 department as well.
10 Q. Okay. So they're doing subscriber services at
11 Schaumburg, Illinois?
12 A. Totally.
13 Q. And then at Salt Lake City, Utah, there's the
14 bull's-eye department; is that true?
15 A. Exactly. Also Salt Lake City normally
16 receives the information from the subscribers that's to
17 be put on the credit report, be it verbal, be it
18 through the mail, or be it tape. We do -- at NCAC they
19 did receive responses to the disputes.
20 Q. So in Allen, Texas, at the NCAC division,
21 you-all would receive the CDV responses --
22 A. Exactly.
23 Q. -- the consumer dispute verification
24 responses, right?
25 A. Exactly.
8
1 Q. And that would be those that were sent through
2 electronic transmission or through the mail?
3 A. Exactly.
4 Q. Now, if there were subscriber changes to be
5 made either by tape or by mail or by verbal
6 instructions, those would be directed to Salt Lake
7 City, Utah; is that correct?
8 A. If it was a normal reporting. If it was a
9 monthly reporting of an account on a consumer, that
10 would be reported to Salt Lake City.
11 Q. So the primary function of the NCAC was to
12 handle incoming phone calls from consumers and incoming
13 mail from consumers, as well as to address any type of
14 reinvestigation problem that a consumer had; is that
15 true?
16 A. That is true.
17 Q. Was that the same function of the NCAC when
18 TRW ran the company?
19 A. Yes, sir, it was.
20 Q. Now, when you went to work for the NCAC in
21 January of '98, how many employees were there working
22 in the call center?
23 A. Approximately 450.
24 Q. Is that total employees in what they term the
25 "bull pen"?
9
1 A. Absolutely. It included the fraud department,
2 the mixed file department, the CASS department, as well
3 as the CSR on the floor.
4 Q. Let's talk about these different departments.
5 Within the NCAC, there are a number of employees who
6 generally work the call and mail center; is that
7 correct?
8 A. That's right.
9 Q. And then you have a fraud department; is that
10 correct?
11 A. That's right.
12 Q. And a mixed file department, right?
13 A. That's right.
14 Q. And then there's also special services, which
15 is called CASS, C-A-S-S?
16 A. That's right.
17 Q. And then you mentioned a CSR division. What
18 is that?
19 A. That's the bull pen. That's the regular --
20 Q. That's the general body of employees running
21 the telephone system and mail -- incoming mail
22 handling?
23 A. Exactly.
24 Q. And you told me that there was a total of 450
25 employees in all of these divisions?
10
1 A. That's right.
2 Q. How would you break those down in terms of
3 numbers in January of 1989 for each division?
4 A. For CASS, I would say they had approximately
5 10 to 12 people in their area. Mixed file had
6 approximately 30 people in their area. Fraud
7 department, at that time, was maybe 20 people. They
8 grew larger later.
9 Q. Okay. And the balance of the employees were
10 in the CSR division?
11 A. Right.
12 Q. Which looks like it would have roughly been
13 430 employees, 440 -- oh, I'm sorry -- 400 roughly?
14 A. (Moving head up and down.)
15 Q. Now, over time you mentioned that the numbers
16 changed insofar as the assignment of employees. Tell
17 me how that changed over time.
18 A. Over time, the mixed file department became
19 larger. They ended up with approximately 40
20 individuals in that department. And fraud department
21 enlarged. They ended up with approximately between 30
22 and 40 people in their area.
23 And they did increase those people that
24 went to the fraud and mixed file. They did hire other
25 people to come in and take their places on the floor.
11
1 Q. Okay. So the number of total employees grew
2 by maybe 20, 30 people?
3 A. I would say even -- about that. That would be
4 about right, yeah.
5 Q. So roughly over time, the balance of total
6 employees in NCAC may have gone up to around 480?
7 A. Exactly.
8 Q. At some point in time, were there layoffs in
9 the NCAC?
10 A. Absolutely. The first layoff that occurred in
11 NCAC while I was with the company occurred in February
12 of 1998. And the second one occurred in March of '99.
13 Q. Now, how many people were laid off in February
14 of '98 out of the NCAC?
15 A. Approximately 100 people were laid off --
16 anywhere from 100 to 150 people were laid off.
17 Q. Were they replaced?
18 A. Not immediately.
19 Q. Were they ever replaced over time?
20 A. Over time they did realize that they needed
21 more people on the floor to answer the increasing calls
22 that they had, so they started hiring again.
23 Q. So there were some -- there was a layoff of
24 roughly one-third of the staff in February of '98. And
25 then over time, there were some additions made, and
12
1 then there was a second layoff in March of '99?
2 A. That's right.
3 Q. Is that when you left the company?
4 A. That's when I left.
5 Q. You were not terminated in any way?
6 A. No, sir.
7 Q. You left on good terms?
8 A. I don't think anybody that was laid off left
9 on good terms. There was a lot of --
10 Q. You were not happy about losing your job --
11 A. Exactly --
12 Q. -- but you did not leave --
13 A. Exactly.
14 Q -- on bad terms?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Have you ever signed a confidentiality
17 agreement with Experian?
18 A. No, I did not.
19 Q. In the second layoff in March of 1999, how
20 many people lost their jobs?
21 A. That layoff, golly, I believe that it was
22 more, about 200 people.
23 Q. How many people were left in the NCAC after
24 this second layoff?
25 A. We were like a skeleton crew. I would say
13
1 approximately 300, 340 maybe, total.
2 Q. Were you one of the last people to depart in
3 that layoff?
4 A. Yes. They did it in two days.
5 Q. Did the number of NCAC employees ever dwindle
6 down to 100 or 200 employees?
7 A. Totally in through -- including fraud and
8 mixed files, no, I wouldn't say that it did dwindle
9 that far.
10 Q. What about in just the call center where there
11 was incoming calls and mail being handled?
12 A. I believe that at one point it got down to 250
13 people.
14 Q. Two hundred fifty --
15 A. At one point.
16 Q. -- in the bull pen area?
17 A. Right. But that was during a time that they
18 had several training classes going on.
19 Q. They were training new people to come in and
20 replace them?
21 A. Exactly.
22 Q. Now, tell me about the problem with the fraud
23 division. What requires there to be a fraud department
24 there?
25 A. Basically it is individuals out there that
14
1 obtain credit card information or personal ID, and they
2 go out and they use that information for their own
3 gains. And the person that it belongs to is the one
4 that it's affected by.
5 Q. Did you have a lot of these cases?
6 A. Yes, there was quite a few fraud. That's why
7 they increased the fraud department.
8 Q. What about in the mixed file area? Why was
9 there a need for a mixed file department?
10 A. Mixed file, again, occurs when individuals
11 have similar names, maybe live in the same city. And
12 there again, too, the information gets mixed.
13 In other words, I'm Vicky Thompson,
14 living in Princeton. There's another Vicky Thompson
15 that lives in Princeton as well.
16 And if a subscriber or anybody else were
17 to get credit information on Vicky Thompson in
18 Princeton, just that alone, that would be enough to mix
19 the two Vicky Thompsons together.
20 Q. You actually handled files where the matching
21 program merged data based upon first and last name?
22 A. Absolutely.
23 Q. And same city and state?
24 A. I had a situation where there was a
25 mother/daughter where they lived in the same home.
15
1 Obviously they had two different middle names, but the
2 first and the last name was the same and, of course,
3 the address was the same.
4 Q. They had different social security numbers and
5 different dates of birth, of course?
6 A. Absolutely, and places of work, etc.
7 Q. Did you find that the matching program
8 employed at Experian did not take into account those
9 kinds of identifiers in order to separate those files?
10 A. All of us that ever worked at NCAC, when we'd
11 be on the phone discussing with the consumer the
12 problems, taking down the information, we all agreed
13 there is something wrong somewhere that they can't keep
14 those individuals separated.
15 Q. Tell me about special services. What was the
16 function of special services?
17 A. They handled attorney general letters,
18 complaints, inquiries. They handled any inquiries from
19 attorneys. We were not to even talk to an attorney on
20 the phone.
21 Q. So the people in the CSR, the bull pen, were
22 directed not to discuss anything with the media or with
23 any governmental agency or an attorney, etc.?
24 A. Exactly.
25 Q. So special services is more of a liaison to
16
1 outside counsel, Jones Day?
2 A. Exactly.
3 Q. And there's 10 to 12 people in that
4 department. Do they handle all of the lawsuits that
5 come in?
6 A. I know that a lot of the lawsuits are handled
7 there in that department. How much is handled out of
8 the home office in California, I really couldn't answer
9 that.
10 Q. Okay. Are the special services employees
11 given special training or perks or benefits?
12 A. That was the cream of the crop. That was the
13 place to be, was in CASS, if you could get there.
14 Q. Why was it the best place to work at Experian?
15 A. One of the primary reasons was because of the
16 manager. She was very fair, very honest. She treated
17 her people with insurmountable respect.
18 Q. Was the pay better?
19 A. Yes, you did get an increase in pay as well.
20 Q. Additional days off? Other benefits?
21 A. That's really up to the manager, but she is
22 quite lenient.
23 Q. When you worked in the bull pen area, how were
24 you paid?
25 A. We received a salary every two weeks. And
17
1 then we had what we called monthly incentives. Now,
2 the monthly incentive is based on the daily quota, and
3 it is also based on the quality.
4 You had to maintain a minimum of
5 90 percent quality. And if you didn't maintain the
6 quality, you were ushered out the door.
7 Q. Let's talk about these different elements.
8 First off, when you worked there, did you work an
9 eight-hour day?
10 A. My scheduled was an eight-hour day, but
11 oftentimes I worked more than that.
12 Q. So you were scheduled to be there at what time
13 in the morning?
14 A. At 7:30 in the morning.
15 Q. 7:30. Did you have coffee break times, lunch
16 break times?
17 A. There was a lunch break of an hour, to a half
18 hour, but a lot of us used to work during our
19 lunchtime. We'd do what we call files, the mail that
20 would come in.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. And we'd do files before work. A lot of us
23 would do files after work and on weekends.
24 Q. So you were scheduled for an eight-hour day,
25 but how long would your average day run?
18
1 A. Anywhere from 10 to 11 hours.
2 Q. Ten to 11 hours a day?
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. Were you paid based on an eight-hour day?
5 A. Yes, we were.
6 Q. Did you have to punch in and out on a time
7 clock?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you ever have to work weekends?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Was it a requirement?
12 A. There were weekends that it was a requirement,
13 yes. And we did get paid time and a half for that.
14 Q. So you were paid at one and a half times your
15 salary?
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. Were you paid for the extra hours you worked
18 beyond an eight-hour day?
19 A. No. And one of the reasons was that we had a
20 quota that we had to make. And oftentimes me, in my
21 own personal situation, I wouldn't meet the quota on
22 the phones, so I'd have to pick it up by doing files
23 because, quite frankly, I spent too much time with the
24 consumers on the phone.
25 Q. Let's talk about your understanding of the
19
1 word "quota." Tell me what that means.
2 A. That means so many calls that you have to
3 answer per day.
4 Q. So at Experian, you were required to handle a
5 certain volume of consumer phone calls in a day, right?
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. What was the quota when you first went to NCAC
8 in January of '98?
9 A. That was 62 calls per day.
10 Q. Sixty-two calls per day when you first went to
11 NCAC in January of '98, correct?
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. Did it change over time?
14 A. Yes, sir, it did, dramatically.
15 Q. Tell me how it changed over time.
16 A. In each -- NCAC was divided up into teams.
17 Every team had a flip chart, and there would be
18 announcements that would be made on the flip chart.
19 And we were told in July of '98 that we
20 had to make 100 per day, calls. And if you couldn't
21 take 100 calls per day, then you were to make it up.
22 Q. You were to make it up?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. In what way?
25 A. By doing the files.
20
1 Q. Did the quota ever go up or down after January
2 of '98, or did it --
3 A. No.
4 Q. -- stay at 100?
5 A. No, it stayed at 100. And there was times
6 when we were urged to even try and do more.
7 Q. Now, if a person were to handle 100 consumer
8 complaints a day or calls a day, that would require
9 them to handle one consumer roughly every 4.8 minutes?
10 A. That's right. Three minutes is what we were
11 given.
12 Q. Three minutes --
13 A. On the phone.
14 Q. Was that a stated -- or how did you know?
15 A. It was stated by our supervisors.
16 Q. Who were the supervisors who oversaw your
17 activities while you were in the NCAC?
18 A. They were called area coordinators, ACs. And
19 if one wasn't there, another one -- another AC from a
20 different team would help out.
21 And one of the frustrating things that we
22 faced was, you could go to two different ACs and ask
23 the same question and get two different answers.
24 Q. To a policy and procedure?
25 A. Exactly.
21
1 Q. But nonetheless, you were required day in, day
2 out, every day that you were there to meet 100 calls
3 per day?
4 A. That's right.
5 Q. Or if you didn't make 100 calls, then there
6 were some repercussions; is that correct?
7 A. That's right.
8 Q. Tell me about the different types of
9 repercussions.
10 A. If you didn't make the calls, you'd be
11 monitored, number one, to see why it was taking you so
12 long or why you weren't making your quota per day.
13 And then you were advised as to what you
14 should do. Don't get into lengthy conversations.
15 Don't ask too many questions of the consumer.
16 Q. Were you ever given instructions as to how to
17 address a consumer?
18 A. Oh, absolutely.
19 Q. How so?
20 A. Absolutely. We were to be friendly and
21 courteous on the phone. We were also told -- when I
22 first started in January of '98, we were allowed to
23 call the subscriber with the consumer on the phone
24 when there was a dispute.
25 As time drew on, towards the end of '98
22
1 they told us, do not call the subscriber with the
2 consumer on the phone.
3 Q. So they did not want you to conduct any
4 conference call between yourself, the subscriber, and
5 the consumer to resolve any issues that the consumer
6 might have?
7 A. Exactly. And then in January of '99 they
8 said, don't call the subscriber at all, which I found
9 to be a little hard.
10 Q. When you were able to reach subscribers, were
11 you able to more quickly resolve problems that a
12 consumer had?
13 A. Yes. We had the authority if we contacted the
14 subscriber by phone and got the name of the person that
15 we were speaking to and got permission from that person
16 to update or handle the dispute, then we could do it.
17 But we had to document it within the
18 computer, within that file, that we had went in there
19 and we talked to so-and-so on such-and-such a date and
20 he said to...
21 Q. Why would the NCAC frown upon conference calls
22 between consumer staff --
23 A. Well, obviously it took too long, number one.
24 Number two, the other reason was, is because they found
25 that some of us reps, as well as the consumer, would
23
1 get too irate and too belligerent with the subscriber.
2 Q. Were subscribers often unwieldy and unwilling
3 to listen?
4 A. Absolutely. There was out-and-out subscribers
5 that would not talk to any of us. AT&T is one.
6 Universal Card, they absolutely would not talk to any
7 rep under any circumstance.
8 Q. Even if it was fraud?
9 A. Even if it was fraud, send it in writing.
10 Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned the repercussions if
11 you did not meet your quota of phone monitoring. Is it
12 your understanding they actually listened into your
13 phone calls?
14 A. I know they did.
15 Q. And then they would grade you or --
16 A. Exactly.
17 Q. -- instruct you on what to do?
18 A. Exactly. That's also how we earned our
19 quality is they'd listen in on our phone calls.
20 Q. Did they record those conversations?
21 A. Yes, they did.
22 Q. Did they record all incoming phone calls in
23 the NCAC?
24 A. No. They spot checked as far as quality was
25 concerned. They would just pick out a representative
24
1 and they would listen to them. Five calls is what they
2 listened to.
3 Q. Did you have occasions where consumers would
4 call in and have a fairly lengthy complaint, perhaps
5 about a number of items on their consumer report?
6 A. Absolutely.
7 Q. Particularly like fraud cases or merged file
8 cases?
9 A. Right. In a fraud case, the normal rep was to
10 put a victim's alert on the credit report. They were
11 to send out information to the consumer in regards to
12 what they can do as far as fraud is concerned. But
13 basically it also told the consumer that they had to
14 physically write -- provide proof of identification to
15 the fraud department.
16 Q. Why would NCAC not want you to ask questions
17 of a consumer?
18 A. It takes too long.
19 Q. So everything was based on time?
20 A. (Moving head up and down.)
21 Q. Is that correct?
22 A. That's right.
23 Q. And meeting a certain number of handled calls
24 in a day?
25 A. Exactly.
25
1 Q. And if you fell below some number of phone
2 calls, were you reprimanded and disciplined further in
3 addition to phone monitoring?
4 A. After the phone monitoring and if you were
5 coached as to what you could do to pick up your calls
6 and you continued falling below average, there was
7 about a six-month period there that they would fire you
8 for not meeting the quota. But then they started
9 the -- well, you can make up your quota by doing the
10 files.
11 Q. Okay. So at one point in time, if you didn't
12 meet this 100 phone call per day quota, they would do
13 phone monitoring and give you a six-month period during
14 which they might fire you if you didn't pick up the
15 speed?
16 A. No. There was a six-month period that they
17 didn't even do that. After you had been monitored and
18 you were coached for about six months there, if you
19 fell below your quota, and as well as your quality, you
20 were walked out the door.
21 Q. Did you know people who were fired for that
22 reason?
23 A. Oh, yes, yes.
24 Q. Did you know other people who worked in the
25 bull pen area who tried to work with consumers on
26
1 problems and were reprimanded or fired?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Was the general atmosphere of the bull pen
4 area anti-consumer?
5 A. I'd say you would have to split the bull pen.
6 The younger representatives were anti -- definitely
7 anti-consumer. And I have to admit that when I came
8 out of training, I was even anti-consumer.
9 It was just an atmosphere where they're
10 lying to you, you know, everything they say is false
11 and that type of thing. So you were -- yeah, right.
12 Q. What about the training program suggested to
13 you that consumers were liars and would be falsifying
14 complaints?
15 A. That was the big thing. Obviously, they're
16 trying to teach you to be a consumer rep. They did
17 cross the courtesy -- being polite, but you cannot
18 believe everything that the consumer tells you. You
19 have to be wary.
20 And one of the other problems we faced
21 was what we call credit clinics calling in, saying they
22 were the consumer. So when you first get out on that
23 floor, you're scared to death. You don't know if
24 you're talking to a credit clinic, if you're talking to
25 a professional liar or what's going on, whether it's
27
1 really the true consumer.
_________________
David Szwak
Chairman, Consumer Protection Section, Louisiana State Bar Association
Bodenheimer, Jones & Szwak, LLC
416 Travis Street, Suite 1404
Mid South Tower
Shreveport, Louisiana 71101
318-424-1400
Fax 318-221-6555 |
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:07 am Post subject: |
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2 Q. Were you ever personally reprimanded about
3 your handling of a particular consumer file?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Tell me about those occasions.
6 A. I had a consumer from New York that was a
7 mixed file. She was extremely irate because it meant a
8 mortgage for her. And she said she had been through
9 this once before about five years earlier, being a
10 mixed file.
11 I apologized profusely to her. I took
12 down all of her information. And I told her that I
13 would definitely hand carry this back to the department
14 that handles the mixed file cases, although I didn't
15 use that term. I told her that I would take this
16 particular situation to a specific department.
17 I went back and talked to one of my
18 friends there in mixed files and asked, can you do me a
19 favor and can you work this one quick and get this out
20 of the way, so I can call the consumer back and say
21 everything will be taken care of within 10 ten days.
22 When I got back to the phone, I was told
23 that I was not to leave my station and I was not to
24 hand carry anything back to mixed file, fraud, CASS,
25 whatever, that I was to put it up front on the
28
1 supervisor's desk. There were certain boxes there that
2 they came by and picked up.
3 And I explained that this woman -- this
4 is the second time that she had been mixed up with
5 someone else, and she had a reason to be upset and to
6 be mad.
7 And it didn't matter. I was not to leave
8 my desk. Write down the information, pass it on to the
9 supervisor box, and they'll come by and get it, period.
10 Q. So as a representative, you would never know
11 the ultimate outcome of any dispute lodged with you?
12 A. Not as far as the -- well, unless I phone
13 verified something I didn't know the outcome.
14 Q. Okay. Well, let me ask you about the quality
15 portion of how your salary was calculated. Tell me,
16 what does that mean at Experian?
17 A. You either had to have 90 percent or
18 100 percent. You had to meet your quota. And on top
19 of that, you had to have 90 percent quality or
20 100 percent quality.
21 Q. How is quality graded at Experian?
22 A. It is graded per the manual, the policy and
23 procedure that has been dictated to us in our training
24 classes.
25 Q. How do you determine quality on an individual
29
1 consumer dispute basis?
2 A. They would listen in on the phone, and they
3 would hear what the consumer had to say. They would
4 hear whether or not I was responding to what the
5 consumer stated correctly and per policy. And if I
6 didn't, there would be -- there was a major and a
7 minor.
8 One of the minor things might have been,
9 you didn't say thank you for calling Experian. That
10 would have been a minor against you. A major was
11 misdisputing -- or missing the disputes was a major.
12 You got 10 points off for that if you missed a dispute
13 or if the dispute was one that should have been handled
14 right then and there, and you sent it on to the
15 subscriber. That was...
16 Q. In the consumer dispute process, when a
17 consumer contacts you either by mail or by phone and
18 complained about a particular item or items on their
19 credit report, what was the process that you were to
20 undertake?
21 A. The normal thing was to send out a CDV to the
22 subscriber. And in the CDV you were to put an external
23 remark, consumer states this is not his account,
24 consumer states he was never delinquent -- whatever the
25 consumer stated, that's what you were supposed to put
30
1 in the CDV going out to the subscriber.
2 Q. Were you given any authority or did the system
3 allow you to make corrections to a consumer's report if
4 you had enough information upon the consumer
5 complaining to make the appropriate adjustments, or did
6 you have to go through the CDV process?
7 A. No, you -- the only way that you could make
8 any adjustments to the credit report or an item was if
9 you phone verified something, if the consumer faxed you
10 proof or sent you proof in writing. That's the only
11 way that you could correct anything.
12 And, obviously, when you sent out the
13 CDVs and the reply came back, it went to another area
14 where they entered the replies from the subscriber into
15 the system.
16 Q. Was there any supervision over these changes
17 that you were allowed to make when it was phone
18 verified or whether it was absolute proof presented by
19 the consumer?
20 A. Technically, no. It was a personal call, I
21 guess you might say. Now, if I had made a mistake and
22 it was picked up by the QTC team, the quality team,
23 then naturally it would be addressed. But if I had
24 made a mistake on a file that wasn't part of the
25 quality review, there was no way that...
31
1 Q. So if a consumer were to go through the
2 dispute process and the information was left on their
3 report, either because the bull pen worker decided it
4 needed to stay, or through the CDV process there was a
5 verification, a subsequent complaint by the same
6 consumer on the same item would be treated as a
7 frivolous dispute?
8 A. It wouldn't even be disputed. If it was
9 within 30 days, it wouldn't even be disputed.
10 Q. They wouldn't look at it at all, then, at
11 Experian?
12 A. No, not unless it was a different -- different
13 complaint on the same item.
14 Q. Let me ask you about how credit reports are
15 generated at Experian. When a consumer asks for a copy
16 of their own credit report, how did you-all have to go
17 about generating that particular report?
18 A. When a consumer would call and say he wanted a
19 copy of his credit report, prior to the days that we
20 had to charge for them, and even with the payments, we
21 would have to get all of their information. That means
22 their full name; their current address; if they haven't
23 been at that address for at least two years, we'd have
24 to get previous addresses; the spouse's name; if they
25 had the spouse's social security number, that was
32
1 great; we had to get their date of birth; their
2 employer.
3 Q. Their social security number?
4 A. Absolutely. That was a must. We couldn't
5 even do anything without that.
6 Q. So when you-all keyed in information in order
7 to make an inquiry and generate a consumer report --
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. -- or what they called, I believe, a consumer
10 disclosure initial or --
11 A. Initial.
12 Q. -- initial consumer disclosure, you-all keyed
13 in a maximum amount of personal identification
14 information to generate a report; is that true?
15 A. That is true.
16 Q. Would that report ordinarily be the same or be
17 different than reports that might be generated for a
18 subscriber?
19 A. The consumer's report is different from the
20 subscriber's report.
21 Q. It's different not only in format, but also in
22 content?
23 A. Yes. The subscriber's copy will have hits
24 that were made by other subscribers on there that
25 possibly the consumer would not see.
33
1 A subscriber's copy would have more
2 detailed information about any delinquencies,
3 bankruptcies, that type of thing, on the credit report.
4 Q. So if you were to access a consumer's report
5 when a consumer contacted you -- perhaps they'd call
6 and say, I've been denied credit, I'd like to get a
7 copy of my credit report -- by entering the maximum
8 amount of personal identification information, isn't it
9 true that the scope of the report, the content within
10 the report, is very narrow, as having been required to
11 match all of the identifiers?
12 A. Yes, and this was the reason for doing that.
13 They stated it was to keep it from becoming a mixed
14 file. But by doing that, you also narrow the
15 consumer's report.
16 Q. So that the consumer is not seeing the true
17 scope of information that Experian is supplying to
18 third persons?
19 A. Exactly.
20 Q. So how is the consumer to know what the
21 subscriber saw?
22 A. We were told at first -- and this wasn't in
23 NCAC; it was in credit file -- that a consumer could
24 not see what a subscriber saw. One of the main factors
25 on a subscriber's report is a risk score of some sort.
34
1 It's either a national score or a Fair Isaac score.
2 Also on a subscriber's report there is a
3 banner where it says how much is delinquent, how many
4 days total accounts are past due, how many derogatories
5 there are on the credit report. It's kind of a summary
6 of what's on --
7 Q. Is it a fact summary?
8 A. Exactly -- on the credit report.
9 Q. It's like a profile summary for the report?
10 A. Exactly. And then the other items are listed
11 below that.
12 Q. So if I understand correctly, when a consumer
13 requested a copy of their report by entering all of the
14 information that you were required to get from them,
15 the scope of the report would be very narrow in terms
16 of actual information retrieved from the system.
17 However, if a subscriber were to utilize
18 the services of Experian and access a report based on
19 name or name plus address or name plus social, they
20 would get a much broader report with different hit
21 levels than would be shown to the consumer?
22 A. Exactly.
23 Q. And by a subscriber contract between Experian
24 and the subscriber, the subscriber is told that they
25 better not show the copy of the credit report to the
35
1 consumer?
2 A. About two years after I went to work there, it
3 came across, yes, you can. You can show your version
4 of the credit report to the consumer, but they chose
5 not to.
6 Q. You say they chose to do that. Experian had
7 decided that it was now okay for the subscriber?
8 A. Yes, because it was legally decided that it
9 was okay for the consumer to see his own credit report
10 from the subscriber. But the subscribers felt that
11 this is something that they didn't want to go over in
12 detail with the consumer, so they weren't going to show
13 them the report. They were going to tell them to call
14 Experian and get a copy of the report.
15 But one of the main bones of contention
16 between consumer and subscriber was their risk scores.
17 They were totally dependent, the subscribers were, on
18 what score that consumer had --
19 Now, if a consumer is going for a car, it
20 might be one type of score. If he's going for a
21 mortgage, it's another type of score. And then that
22 subscriber has a certain window that he follows in his
23 scoring.
24 Then he tells the consumer, well, we
25 can't give you the loan because your score is
36
1 such-and-such. Then the consumer says, well, what the
2 devil is the score, what are they talking about.
3 Q. So the consumer would be very confused when
4 they contacted Experian?
5 A. Absolutely, and knew nothing about the
6 scoring.
7 Q. And at Experian, they did not provide
8 consumers any of the scoring information to evaluate it
9 themselves?
10 A. No, they did not.
11 Q. If the scope of the report were different
12 between the copy provided the subscriber and the copy
13 provided the consumer, it appears the consumer might
14 not even see derogatory information which might have
15 merged into the subscriber's copy on a different hit
16 level; is that true?
17 A. An earlier, beyond a two-year period, yes,
18 that is true.
19 Q. Tell me what different hit level -- what do
20 the words "hit level" mean?
21 A. A hit level is the type of inquiry that is
22 made by a subscriber or by Experian. That's a hit
23 level.
24 Now, if I owned a company and I was
25 pulling a report on a consumer to grant credit, that
37
1 hit level would be such-and-such. If I was doing it as
2 an employer, pulling a credit report, that hit level
3 would be such-and-such. And that's the type of inquiry
4 that is pulled by the subscriber.
5 MR. VAN BEUSTRING: Off the record.
6 (Discussion off the record.)
7 Q. When you began working in the NCAC, did they
8 provide you certain training?
9 A. Yes. They gave us six-weeks training, which
10 basically covered the manual that we had.
11 Q. What type of manual was it?
12 A. It covered CDIs, CDFs, bankruptcy, how to
13 handle a bankruptcy case, Chapter 13 or Chapter 11 or
14 Chapter 7, the laws regarding bankruptcy, the laws from
15 the FTC regarding consumer reports, what Experian
16 expected of you in handling consumer disputes.
17 Basically it went over policy, procedure, and law.
18 Q. And were you provided a large manual?
19 A. Oh, yes. We had a three-ring binder that was
20 about three inches thick, three to four inches thick.
21 Q. Did you keep it there on your desk for daily
22 use?
23 A. Yes, we did.
24 Q. Did they provide you other manuals on the Fair
25 Credit Reporting Act, and maybe the fraud department
38
1 handled training and other things?
2 A. Yes, they did.
3 Q. How many different manuals were there for you
4 to use in your job?
5 A. There could be as many as seven or eight
6 different manuals.
7 Q. Seven or eight?
8 A. Then there was always updates that were
9 brought in.
10 Q. Did they also provide you instructional
11 directives on flip charts and other blackboards or --
12 A. Yes, they did.
13 Q. -- wash boards?
14 A. Yes, they did -- newsletters. Once a month,
15 we got a newsletter. We also had the flip charts, as I
16 stated before, which, if anything urgent or anything
17 new came up, they'd put it on the flip chart where we
18 could be on the phone and look at it.
19 Q. What types of things might be posted to a flip
20 chart?
21 A. Maybe there was a consumer fraud, maybe the
22 University of Colorado called and said someone broke
23 into their personnel records and IDs were stolen --
24 possible fraud -- alert you to that.
25 It might be that a subscriber had --
39
1 wants you to pull a consumer's report and look for
2 something, maybe a fraud or a mixed file or something
3 of that sort.
4 It would be an update even to policy. We
5 are no longer going to be giving out reports to bureau
6 number such-and-such located in whatever state.
7 So it was anything that was having to do
8 with policy, procedure, some of the laws that went into
9 effect, the later laws that went into effect where --
10 and they would be followed up with a letter or -- a
11 newsletter-type thing.
12 Q. How many consumer disputes or pieces of mail
13 came in a day at National Consumer -- at the NCAC?
14 A. On an average, there was between 25 and
15 30,000, although there would be times when the mail
16 load would be much higher.
17 You can predict a heavy mail load, like,
18 when school starts, when school lets out,
19 Christmastime, holidays, when people are going out and
20 getting credit, or after school lets out they're
21 looking for a house to buy or...
22 Q. What percentage of the mail that you actually
23 reviewed involved this request for credit reports as
24 opposed to consumer complaints?
25 A. Oh, the CDIs. It would be wonderful if that's
40
1 all you got was a stack of requests for their own
2 credit report. You could really fly through those.
3 But most the time it was -- it was actual disputes.
4 In the disputes you'd find fraud cases,
5 you'd find mixed file cases, and obviously disputes.
6 Q. And you had roughly four minutes -- well,
7 actually three minutes to handle each dispute?
8 A. Not on the files -- not on the files.
9 Q. You had as much time as you needed to after
10 hours?
11 A. Exactly, exactly.
12 Q. So if you were to handle a telephone call
13 every three minutes --
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. -- you would still have, roughly, maybe an
16 hour at the end of day to address mail, according to
17 Experian's guidelines?
18 A. Uh-huh, an hour some time during the day. I
19 put in an hour before work -- an hour and a half before
20 work. I'd put in a half hour at lunch. I normally
21 wouldn't stay after unless it was a real crunch.
22 Q. Was everybody there doing this?
23 A. The majority -- the majority.
24 Q. Say, 80 percent?
25 A. I'd go so far as 95 percent of the people.
41
1 Q. Ninety-five percent. And you think maybe
2 those five percent that were not doing it were not
3 meeting their quotas?
4 A. No, probably the five percent doing it were
5 meeting their quotas. They didn't have to do the
6 files.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. But there are times when we were told, you are
9 going to work files.
10 Q. How many times, in your experience, were you
11 able to handle a consumer dispute in three minutes or
12 less?
13 A. Not very often.
14 Q. Maybe when they only had one complaint?
15 A. If there was one dispute, yes, you could get
16 in and out real quick.
17 Q. So when you would receive a consumer dispute,
18 either by mail or telephone, you would first have to
19 retrieve the consumer's report?
20 A. Exactly.
21 Q. And that would be the current report that you
22 would generate based upon maximum personal information
23 input?
24 A. Exactly.
25 Q. Now, what if you retrieved that report and
42
1 because of the scope of the report it didn't show the
2 derogatory items that the consumer was complaining
3 about?
4 A. Then I would ask the consumer to mail me a
5 copy or fax me a copy of the report that he had.
6 Q. But it would take additional time just for you
7 to be able to locate the item?
8 A. Exactly.
9 Q. Did you have any ability to look at prior
10 credit reports that were issued to creditors there on
11 the system?
12 A. You could go in and look to the previous two
13 years and do an admin -- what's called an admin. And
14 the admin would show you how many times his address had
15 been reported, how many times that name had been
16 reported, how many times the social security number had
17 been reported. It was much more detailed.
18 Q. Was it a detailed and comprehensive report
19 showing you the source of each reporting and the
20 address and name reported in connection with each
21 account?
22 A. Who reported the name, who reported the social
23 security number and, hopefully, it would all be the
24 same.
25 Q. In your experience, if you had an admin report
43
1 in front of you and you had a fraud file --
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. -- someone complaining that someone stole
4 their identity, the admin report would provide you a
5 greater amount of information to resolve that
6 consumer's complaint, true?
7 A. It would, but we weren't allowed to work the
8 fraud files. So what we -- I had to verify, number
9 one, that it was a fraud file. That was the first
10 thing you had to do. And -- well, the first thing you
11 did was put a victim alert on there for the consumer.
12 And then you sent them out the information as to how to
13 handle this fraud case with Experian.
14 But then you'd do the admin, and you'd
15 look in there to see if it was, indeed, a fraud that
16 was occurring. And if it was, then you'd have to go
17 back and fill out a sheet that had all the consumer's
18 information, the ID number of the report that you
19 pulled up, and then you would put down -- list down the
20 name of the accounts that you thought were fraud
21 accounts, as well as what the consumer said were fraud
22 accounts.
23 Q. When you looked at an admin report, could you
24 see that there were two conflicting pools of data, one
25 generated from the fraud address and one generated for
44
1 a longer period of time in connection with a consumer's
2 true address?
3 A. Yes, you can.
4 Q. It seems to me that the admin report is
5 extraordinarily helpful in a fraud case.
6 A. It is for fraud and for mixed files as well.
7 Q. Why, then, did Experian require the
8 perfunctory CDV process to be engaged in if they had
9 all of the information that they needed right there in
10 the admin report to resolve mixed files and fraud
11 cases?
12 A. Number one, a lot of your customer service
13 reps were not trained well enough to look at an admin
14 report and know what they were looking at. So if a
15 consumer stated, well, this account is fraudulent, the
16 only thing that rep would be able to do is send out a
17 CDV to the subscriber stating, this consumer states
18 this is a fraudulent account.
19 Q. Did you have occasions where CDVs were sent
20 out on fraud cases or merged file cases and there was
21 just immediate verification sent back to you, despite
22 what you had in your possession to be pretty good proof
23 that the consumer's complaint was valid?
24 A. If what you had in your possession was valid
25 enough proof, then it definitely could be corrected
45
1 right away, but not by you, not by a non-fraud person.
2 It would still have to go to the fraud department.
3 Q. Okay. But you never knew the outcome of any
4 of those complaints because you may have handled the
5 initial consumer call or letter, but then it
6 transferred out of your hands to where you never knew
7 the outcome of the complaint?
8 A. Exactly.
_________________
David Szwak
Chairman, Consumer Protection Section, Louisiana State Bar Association
Bodenheimer, Jones & Szwak, LLC
416 Travis Street, Suite 1404
Mid South Tower
Shreveport, Louisiana 71101
318-424-1400
Fax 318-221-6555 |
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9 Q. And, for example, if you alerted a subscriber
10 to some problem with some of their reportings, if they
11 subsequently decided to make a change, it went to a
12 different city, to the bull's-eye department, correct?
13 A. It wasn't supposed to, but it could have gone
14 there, yes.
15 Q. You might not ever know the outcome of any of
16 these complaints that you took in and initially
17 handled?
18 A. Not until the consumer called back. And most
19 of the time, the consumer will take down your name.
20 Q. If you took in an initial consumer complaint,
21 did -- was that file assigned to you for future
22 handling?
23 A. When we got our new telephone system in, yes.
24 Q. When was that?
25 A. Let me think. December of '98, we got the new
46
1 phone system in. And they were able to tell from that
2 phone system who had handled what call.
3 If a consumer called in and asked for
4 Vicky, they would ask for a file number. They'd pull
5 up the file and they'd see that I had worked the file
6 and whatever date and they'd transfer the call to me.
7 It was supposed to work, which I never --
8 I don't think it did. I never saw proof that it did,
9 that if the consumer called back in a second time, he
10 was automatically connected to you, but I never saw
11 proof that that worked.
12 Q. This new phone system, did it have some
13 Caller ID capture and --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- some technology to decide who the call
16 should be routed to?
17 A. It was supposed to, yes.
18 Q. Was this to deter credit clinics or particular
19 people who might handle multiple consumer complaints?
20 A. Absolutely.
21 Q. For example, let's say an attorney might
22 represent a number of consumers and call and write
23 letters to try to help them straighten out their files.
24 The Caller ID system might then stop accepting calls
25 from him or put him to the same credit clinic
47
1 department?
2 A. Exactly, exactly. In fact, they'd shut it
3 off. You'd be shut off after so many repeated calls
4 into the center.
5 Q. So if a consumer were to call multiple times,
6 perhaps in a fraud case, after how many calls might
7 they be shut off?
8 A. It could be six, fourteen.
9 Q. It varied over time?
10 A. Yes, it varied. It would always be the same
11 telephone number. That's what they looked for.
12 Q. Are you familiar with the use at Experian of a
13 telephone system and recording device -- or an
14 answering machine system there.
15 A. (Moving head up and down.)
16 Q. Tell me what you know about that.
17 A. Experian obtained new numbers. The
18 888-Experian number is a new automated system. They
19 can place their disputes on line or through the
20 automated system. They can order a CDI through the
21 automated system. And you can eventually talk to a
22 consumer rep.
23 Q. At some point in time, did Experian downsize
24 the number of human being consumer service reps in lieu
25 of using this automated system?
48
1 A. Well, that's what we all thought in March that
2 was the reason for it.
3 Q. Did you ultimately learn that, in fact, they
4 did downsize the call center?
5 A. Well, they downsized it, but apparently there
6 was some problem somewhere because they started hiring
7 like the devil again.
8 Q. Has that been recently?
9 A. Yes. About the last six months, they've been
10 hiring heavy, advertisements in the paper and...
11 Q. Since the FTC suit?
12 A. Could possibly be.
13 Q. Now, while you were at Experian, did they use
14 this automated system?
15 A. The only automated system that was there when
16 I was there was the CDI system.
17 Q. And that was to allow a consumer to call in.
18 And at their option, they could choose to order their
19 credit report over the telephone?
20 A. Right. If they had received a copy of their
21 report within the year, then the message came back that
22 you have to pay for your report.
23 Q. Well, how did Experian authenticate that those
24 were the correct people that they were sending the
25 credit reports to?
49
1 A. They used the name -- I'm sorry, I take that
2 back. They did not use the name. They used the social
3 security number and the first four numbers of the
4 address or street address and your zip code.
5 Q. Well, if I called in on the telephone and I
6 wanted to order Russell Van Beustring's credit report,
7 it would decide whether or not I was Russell Van
8 Beustring based upon the social security number I input
9 plus the first four numbers of the address and the zip
10 code that I supplied?
11 A. (Moving head up and down.)
12 Q. There was no other authentication process?
13 A. I just did it today. I ordered my husband's
14 report today from that telephone number,
15 1-888-Experian, and that's exactly what they did.
16 And I forgot to tell him that I did it,
17 too.
18 Q. Let me ask you about the posting of certain
19 information. When you, in the course of your job, are
20 assisting consumers with complaints, did you have a
21 tendency to find that public records information might
22 erroneously post across multiple consumers' files with
23 the same name?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Why would that happen?
50
1 A. Basically there's not enough identification
2 when their entering that information into the system.
3 Q. Well, doesn't Experian control what minimum
4 amount of information is required in order to initially
5 provide information into the system?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thus, if a person gathering up -- just out
8 scooping up public records data wanted to post that
9 data or sell it to Experian, Experian solely controls
10 the ability to post that data in what minimum amount of
11 identification information is required to post, right?
12 A. The whole time that I worked at Experian, I
13 know they had contractors that went out to various
14 courthouses and picked up public information, and
15 they'd bring it back.
16 Q. Did you see a large number of disputes
17 pertaining to information that had inadequate
18 identifiers posted with it?
19 A. Of public record or other?
20 Q. Public record or otherwise.
21 A. Oh, yes.
22 Q. So inadequate information in the posting
23 process would often cause that information to post
24 across multiple files?
25 A. If there wasn't enough information --
51
1 identifying information on the consumer, it could go to
2 other -- a majority name, same name.
3 Q. So let's say that a man named Mike Smith in
4 Dallas got a judgment against him. Would you say that
5 it's an absolute certainty that that judgment, if there
6 were nothing more than Mike Smith from Dallas, Texas --
7 use any address -- would post across all Mike Smiths?
8 A. Absolutely.
9 Q. And then Experian actually operated using a
10 process of causing all of the other Mike Smiths to
11 dispute that information and weed it out on the back
12 end through a reinvestigation rather than requiring
13 adequate information on the front end?
14 A. Exactly. I personally had phone verified some
15 of the courthouses and found out from the courthouses
16 that they didn't always supply a social security number
17 when they gave the information, when their information
18 was retrieved to go onto an Experian report.
19 So, consequently, you're looking at an
20 address and a name, more so than you are if it is that
21 individual.
22 Q. Did you find that certain subscribers had a
23 tendency to alter information in order to avoid the
24 obsolescence provision?
25 A. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
52
1 Q. Let's talk about what type of companies that
2 you routinely encountered in that regard.
3 A. Most of the time it was collection recovery
4 companies.
5 Q. Was this a secondary collection area?
6 A. By secondary, what do you mean?
7 Q. Secondary meaning these are people who buy
8 obsolete and prescribed -- or where the statute has run
9 on a debt?
10 A. Absolutely.
11 Q. These would be what I would term a secondary
12 collector as opposed to a primary collector who may
13 take an account when it first goes into delinquency.
14 Did you find some particular problems in
15 connection with secondary lenders?
16 A. Absolutely.
17 Q. Tell me what type of problems that you
18 remember.
19 A. One of the biggest problems I had was with
20 United Recovery. And by accident, a consumer called in
21 and said that he had this collection account on his
22 credit report, but the account was so old that it was
23 included in a bankruptcy back in '87.
24 So I looked at the end creditor and that
25 happened to be -- the original creditor happened to be
53
1 Montgomery Wards. So I called Montgomery Wards and
2 talked to a credit person there, gave them the
3 information, the consumer's social security number and
4 name and address, etc., and said, I have this account
5 showing on his credit report as being uncollected --
6 and most of the time, they could recharge off even on
7 there -- and he's telling me that it was included in a
8 bankruptcy that occurred over 10 years ago, 12 years
9 ago.
10 And Montgomery Wards came back that first
11 time and said, yes, they had taken it off their books
12 back in '87 or '86 type of thing. And I said, well, if
13 that's the case, then it shouldn't be on the credit
14 report right now. Well, no, it shouldn't. What is
15 your name, etc.
16 I got the full name. I typed into the
17 comment section that I spoke to him and that I told him
18 that this account should be deleted, and he agreed, or
19 else he told me that it could be deleted, whichever. I
20 had quite a few accounts like that. And then I would
21 say that I was deleting the account based on the
22 subscriber comment.
23 Q. If I understand, there is a particular problem
24 with a secondary lender being able to create a new
25 reporting under their subscriber name and subscriber
54
1 code, and either not listing a date of last activity or
2 somehow suggesting that the date of last activity is
3 the date they opened the collection account?
4 A. Or by changing the original delinquency date.
5 Q. If I understand, the way the system
6 functioned, there was no way -- or at least Experian
7 did not require them to link the new reporting back to
8 the original delinquency?
9 A. No, no, no. It would come out like it was a
10 brand-new delinquency appearing on the credit report.
11 Q. And only recently in the Metro Two sequence
12 did they actually increase the number of data fields to
13 even allow a secondary lender to list the identity of
14 the first creditor?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. But that doesn't even require those data
17 fields to be entered; is that true?
18 A. That is true.
19 Q. So, in essence, if a secondary lender still
20 wants to circumvent the obsolescence provision, they
21 simply leave the original creditor field blank or the
22 original date of delinquency blank, and there is still
23 no cross reference?
24 A. No, you're right.
25 Q. Have you ever been aware of discussions within
55
1 the walls of Experian about this particular problem and
2 what they proposed to do or not do about it?
3 A. I absolutely do know. I turned this
4 particular problem 11 times to our security compliance
5 division. And I asked what was going on. I was told
6 not to worry about it; they pay our paychecks, period.
7 Q. So would you agree with me that in the CDV
8 process when there were consumer disputes and CDVs were
9 sent out -- that's a consumer dispute verification?
10 A. Right.
11 Q. -- that the buck stops with the creditor.
12 Whatever they say is what's going to happen?
13 A. Exactly.
14 Q. So if the consumer has an overwhelming amount
15 of proof that it's either fraud or it's inaccurate --
16 or otherwise inaccurate, the buck stops with the
17 creditor?
18 A. We sent out the CDV, and whatever that
19 creditor says on the CDV goes. If the consumer can
20 show by an old credit report or by proof of payment a
21 bankruptcy schedule showing the account on there was
22 included, then you could use that, but not many people
23 keep those kind of records after 10, 12, 14 years.
24 Q. Would you agree with me that perhaps the
25 consumer could convince Experian that the creditor is
56
1 wrong if they were dealing with someone like you, as
2 opposed to dealing with, perhaps, another consumer rep
3 that tows the party line?
4 A. Well, I wouldn't take their word for it
5 necessarily. I'd -- like I stated, I would call the
6 original creditor and find out.
7 Q. If you went against a subscriber's word or
8 version, would that be counted against you in quality
9 control?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So in essence, if the creditor is saying,
12 leave it on there and you're saying, no, no, no, look,
13 there's this overwhelming amount of information here
14 that it's fraud, if you went against them, it counts
15 against you in quality control?
16 A. It would count against quality control, and it
17 would be my responsibility to make sure that whole
18 issue went to security compliance.
19 Q. Did you ever have something like this happen
20 to you?
21 A. Oh, yes. I was called down. I was given a
22 verbal warning.
23 Q. Is it made very clear to you as an employee at
24 Experian that you are to cater to the subscribers?
25 A. It is made clear that they pay your paycheck
57
1 and don't forget it.
2 Q. How is that conveyed to you other than this
3 quality function of your salary?
4 A. Well, just like I stated a few minutes ago
5 about United Recovery, when I turned that over, 11
6 different complaints, 11 of them, and each and every
7 one of them I had phone verified with Montgomery Wards.
8 I was told, don't worry about it, they pay your
9 paycheck.
10 Q. Was it your impression after these 11 separate
11 complaints that you turned in, to raise the question
12 about obsolete debts being reported well beyond the
13 time allowed on the Fair Credit Reporting Act that
14 management was telling you, we're not going to deal
15 with this issue, we're going to let them keep reporting
16 it?
17 A. Absolutely.
18 Q. Was there ever any indication to you, yes,
19 Vicky, we know that's a problem, we're working on it,
20 or was it, Vicky, you leave that alone?
21 A. It was, Vicky, just go about your own work.
22 Q. It was -- they never directed you to go ahead
23 and delete it off of that particular consumer's file?
24 A. Management wouldn't, no. But when I went to
25 quality with an initial United Recovery, as an example,
58
1 and I said, look, I phone verified and they said this
2 had been charged off many years ago, over 10 years ago,
3 they said, well, if the original creditor said that it
4 was charged off, take -- go ahead and delete it.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. So I took them there at that word.
7 Q. But if you had simply sent a CDV to the
8 secondary debt collector, what would have happened?
9 A. It would have come back and said, it remains
10 on the credit report.
11 Q. It's to be verified and stays on the report?
12 A. That they verified that the information is
13 accurate and correct and it's to stay on the report.
14 Q. Did you have other occasions where you sent
15 CDVs to these secondary collection companies and they
16 simply verified them?
17 A. Yes. It didn't have to be secondary
18 companies. A lot of the primary collection companies
19 were that way too.
20 Q. So many primary collection companies continued
21 to collect things well beyond the statute and continued
22 to report them by tampering with the date of last
23 activity?
24 A. Exactly, exactly.
25 Q. Was it commonplace for your primary collection
59
1 companies to take in account when it went into
2 delinquency and through manipulating the metro tape
3 fields, such as date of last activity or date the
4 collection account was opened, to actually extend their
5 ability to report that information 10, 20, 30 years?
6 A. Exactly.
7 Q. So this problem was not just limited to
8 secondary collectors, but also occurred in the primary
9 collection --
10 A. As well as normal accounts.
11 Q. Did it also have a tendency to occur with
12 original creditors?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. So original creditors, in essence, if you had
15 gone delinquent on an account and there had been no
16 activity for seven years, they might simply tamper with
17 the date of last activity to keep the negative
18 reporting going infinite amount of time?
19 A. That's right. MBNA is one account that was
20 good for doing that.
21 Q. How do you know that?
22 A. I had experience with it.
23 Q. Did they tell you that that's what they were
24 going to do, or did you see many accounts like that?
25 A. I saw accounts like that where the consumer
60
1 would say that originated, I originally went delinquent
2 on that account back 10 years ago. And I'd call MBNA
3 and they would say, well, yeah, but it was reopened on
4 such-and-such a day.
5 Q. What did that mean?
6 A. And that's what I'd ask them, would -- you
7 closed an account and you reopened it, or it became a
8 positive account. Well, no, they didn't have anymore
9 activity going on, we wanted to keep it on the credit
10 report.
11 Q. So they basically told you, this is our way of
12 keeping it on there?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. Were you familiar with the process of
15 reporting bankruptcies?
16 A. The process of reporting bankruptcies?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. I am aware of the bankruptcies on the credit
19 report.
20 Q. Now, those would be reported in through people
21 working at Experian who would gather public records
22 data?
23 A. Exactly.
24 Q. Now, if a consumer filed a bankruptcy, would
25 that information sometimes appear on accounts where
61
1 another person were merely a card user?
2 A. Yes, they would.
3 Q. So in essence, if my parents, for example --
4 this didn't happen, but we're going to use a
5 hypothetical -- if they had a credit card account,
6 American Express, and they had merely listed me as
7 being able to obtain a card on the account, but no
8 legal responsibilities for the account --
9 A. An authorized user.
10 Q. Yes. And they subsequently went into a
11 bankruptcy, wouldn't that bankruptcy appear on my
12 credit report along with this particular account?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you have cases where people complained
15 about the reporting of authorized user information?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Tell me what types of problems that you saw.
18 A. Basically it was just as you illustrated, I
19 was only an authorized user, I wasn't responsible
20 for that, I never used the account, my name was on
21 there as an authorized user.
22 Q. Were there occasions where some people didn't
23 even know they were listed as an authorized user?
24 A. Yes, there was occasions like that as well.
25 When it would show up on their credit report as an
62
1 authorized user, they'd say, well, I didn't know that.
2 Q. Did Experian have a policy with regard to how
3 to handle these types of issues?
4 A. You'd dispute it with the subscriber and you'd
5 send out a CDV.
6 Q. So if the subscriber came back and said, no,
7 he is an authorized user, you'd leave it on there,
8 right?
9 A. That's right. And then I would inform the
10 consumer that he had the right to put a comment.
11 Q. And the comment would be in the form of a
12 consumer statement?
13 A. Similar to that, yes. Yes.
14 Q. Now, a consumer statement is generally -- it
15 generally appears at the very bottom of a credit
16 report; is that correct?
17 A. The old reports, I know, had showed the
18 statements at the bottom of the report. But the new
19 formatted reports that came out, I believe they were
20 right there, along with the account that they were...
21 Q. Right. There's two different types of
22 consumer statements. There's a very abbreviated
23 statement that could be attached to a particular trade
24 line, but the general overall consumer statements
25 are --
63
1 A. It's on the bottom.
2 Q. But neither of those forms of consumer
3 statements are factored into the credit scoring
4 process?
5 A. Absolutely not.
6 Q. So if a consumer scrawled in vain on his
7 credit record, I'm a fraud victim, you know, there's a
8 real problem with this, those statements are not
9 factored in, in any way, in the credit scoring process?
10 A. No. I had a situation of a lady in New York,
11 again, that she was divorced. After she -- she was
12 awarded the house in the divorce. The house was in her
13 husband's name and her name. They never quitclaimed or
14 deeded it to one or the other.
15 The husband claimed bankruptcy on the
16 mortgage. And when I called the mortgage company --
17 because this woman was making payments and had never
18 been late, never had a delinquency of any kind, but yet
19 this bankruptcy showed up on the mortgage.
20 And I called the mortgage company and he
21 said, there really isn't anything we can do. We have
22 to leave the bankruptcy on there because the husband
23 was still listed on the mortgage. And I said, well,
24 can't you put some kind of a comment on there from you
25 stating that she has kept the payments current since
64
1 the divorce, something.
2 And he said, I'm sorry. He said, there's
3 really nothing I can do. I said, if she can get her
4 husband to quitclaim the property over to her where you
5 would accept it, would you take this bankruptcy off of
6 her credit report. And he said, no, because it's part
7 of history.
8 Q. So their position was if it was somehow
9 historically accurate on the account, then they were
10 entitled to report it?
11 A. Exactly.
12 Q. In connection with the fraud training that you
13 received, if a consumer called in and started
14 complaining about fraud, what were you supposed to do
15 for the consumer?
16 A. I immediately put on a victim alert, sent them
17 out the information.
18 Q. That's a temporary statement on the report to
19 be seen by any creditor who might view the physical
20 report?
21 A. Exactly.
22 Q. But that's not reviewed by creditors in
23 automated application processing, is it?
24 A. No, it isn't.
25 Q. It doesn't take the consumer's credit report
65
1 off-line and prevent access, does it?
2 A. No, it does not.
3 Q. So it's only good if you see the physical
4 report, right?
5 A. Exactly.
6 Q. Okay. What else did you have to do other than
7 the statement?
8 A. That was it basically.
9 Q. Did you sell them a copy of the credit report?
10 A. No. We would send one out free of charge
11 because it was a fraud.
12 Q. So if it was fraud, they got a free copy of
13 their credit report.
14 A. Exactly.
15 Q. And what were they directed to do once they
16 got the report?
17 A. They were to look it over by detail, every
18 detail, social security number, date of birth,
19 addresses that had been reported and, any accounts that
20 they did not recognize whatsoever, in any way, shape,
21 or form.
22 And then they were to write back. They
23 could send a copy of the report back if they wished,
24 marking those items that were fraud, but they had to
25 contact us back, supplying identification, such as
66
1 social security card, driver's license -- copy of a
2 driver's license.
3 Q. Did they ever have to provide an affidavit
4 notarized?
5 A. Not initially going to the fraud department,
6 no.
7 Q. At some point, were you-all directed to tell
8 the consumer to call the creditors and work it out with
9 the creditors?
10 A. I never told any of my consumers to do that.
11 Q. But was that part of the procedures at
12 Experian to sort of put back onto the consumer the
13 obligation of contacting the duped creditors?
14 A. I have heard customer service reps doing it,
15 yes. And usually it was some type of -- I'd say about
16 50 percent of the time there was a creditor that had
17 called the consumer in the first place and said, we
18 opened up an account. And, of course, the consumer
19 would say --
20 Q. Through some skip tracing process, they would
21 have located the victim. And the victim begins
22 complaining and contacts the bureau and then learns
23 that there's a whole plethora of fraudulent accounts?
24 A. And in the cases that the creditor had called
25 the consumer, they normally would refer it to their
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1 fraud department as well.
_________________
David Szwak
Chairman, Consumer Protection Section, Louisiana State Bar Association
Bodenheimer, Jones & Szwak, LLC
416 Travis Street, Suite 1404
Mid South Tower
Shreveport, Louisiana 71101
318-424-1400
Fax 318-221-6555 |
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2 Q. The security alert that you were required to
3 place on the credit report on a fraud complaint, was
4 that just a temporary alert?
5 A. Yes, it was a temporary alert. The fraud
6 department would be the one to put the permanent
7 security fraud alert on. And that fraud alert stated
8 that they were a victim of fraud and that they were to
9 call -- they could supply -- give a telephone number,
10 but they had to supply us a copy of their phone bill
11 with the phone number on it.
12 But -- in that fraud letter, it would
13 state to call me at such-and-such a number to verify I
14 am the one applying for credit.
15 Now, that fraud alert would actually keep
16 some creditors, depending on the nature of their
17 business, from pulling a credit report.
18 Q. What type of creditors might be prevented from
19 pulling it?
20 A. One of the most popular was -- some were
21 certain types of retail and banking.
22 Q. Like Sears, J.C. Penney, Dillard's --
23 A. Exactly.
24 Q. -- people like that?
25 A. Exactly. They would turn to the consumer and
68
1 say, I can't pull a credit report on you. I can't
2 access the system.
3 Q. Why would that be? Were those companies who
4 were more prone to be hit by theft of identity
5 application forms?
6 A. Exactly.
7 Q. Was that part of the procedures at Experian,
8 to then restrict access to the consumer's file to
9 certain subscribers who were more prone to be hit by
10 application fraud?
11 A. I wouldn't go that far. I couldn't say that,
12 to be honest with you. I really couldn't.
13 Q. You just knew that there were --
14 A. But at the same time, I knew, because we'd
15 even get calls in the center from subscribers saying, I
16 can't pull up this credit report. And it would be a
17 bank, like Norwest Bank, as an example, called me one
18 day, and I pulled up the credit report, and there was a
19 fraud alert right across there, but they couldn't
20 access it.
21 Q. What about your ability to resolve consumer
22 disputes after the consumer got their initial
23 disclosure?
24 And let's say they got their initial
25 disclosure, they contacted you, they got the initial
69
1 report. Now they're contacting you with a dispute,
2 whether in writing or over the telephone.
3 If I understand what you told me, you
4 would go through the process of identifying what their
5 complaints were and you would send out either
6 electronic or by mail or sometimes by telephone
7 verification, you would convey the disputes to the
8 creditors?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. How many of these CDVs might you send out in a
11 day?
12 A. 100, maybe 200.
13 Q. So, let's say, if you had to handle 100 calls
14 a day, and each consumer only had one dispute, per
15 dispute that would be 100 CDVs.
16 A. Exactly.
17 Q. And then if you had to do mail and other
18 things, it sounds like you might be sending out a lot
19 of CDVs a day?
20 A. Yeah. It's just hard to estimate a certain
21 number per day because like one file, for instance,
22 could have 15 different disputes.
23 Q. If a CDV response were sent back to you --
24 let's say you sent a CDV to J.C. Penney.
25 A. Uh-huh.
70
1 Q. And J.C. Penney received it like an E-mail
2 blip and they say, okay, let's look at this, and they
3 verified it, would it come back to you to where you
4 could see that it had been verified?
5 A. No.
6 Q. But if it came back to you suggesting that
7 they needed to alter that information in some way,
8 would it be routed to you or to some other consumer
9 rep?
10 A. It would be routed to a different team that
11 handled the CDVs.
12 Q. So there were teams that would handle outgoing
13 CDVs and some teams would handle incoming CDVs?
14 A. Well, most of your phone reps were handling
15 the outgoing CDVs because they had the consumer on the
16 line -- the telephone line -- or the file.
17 Q. It seems there would be fewer incoming CDVs to
18 be handled if you-all didn't have to fool with verified
19 complaints; is that true?
20 A. If we could verify the complaints. If we
21 could phone verify, there would be less CDVs.
22 Q. Let me ask you about this scenario. Let's say
23 the consumer contacted you and complained about
24 something in their credit report. And you-all sent one
25 CDV to J.C. Penney and a second CDV to Dillard's.
71
1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. J.C. Penney verified their reporting and sent
3 it back to Experian.
4 A. Right.
5 Q. There would be no need nor that CDV to be
6 handled or viewed by any particular person; is that
7 correct?
8 A. That's right.
9 Q. In an automated fashion, it would presumably
10 report the fact that that information was verified to
11 the consumer, true?
12 A. Exactly.
13 Q. But if the Dillard's CDV came back and said,
14 now, we've decided the consumers may be right about
15 this, delete this account, then it would require some
16 manual intervention in the process; is that correct?
17 A. Exactly. A CDV, be it whoever it comes from,
18 however many disputes that are on that credit report,
19 they would come back to the physical location in Allen.
20 There was a team that handled the
21 responses to the CDVs. And they'd input that
22 information onto the credit report. Once that
23 information had been updated that night, a new report
24 would be sent out to the consumer.
25 Q. I guess what I'm getting at, if a creditor
72
1 were verifying some information, do you know for sure
2 that they actually responded to the CDVs, or did you
3 only see CDVs coming back in where changes were
4 requested?
5 A. No, I wouldn't have a clue what had occurred
6 myself because I never receive the CDVs.
7 Q. You were dealing with outgoing CDVs. But you
8 saw other people working on incoming CDVs?
9 A. Exactly.
10 Q. Presumably, there's more outgoing than there
11 are incoming if there's verifications to a large number
12 of them, right?
13 A. If you're looking at the center that has 300
14 people in it and they're talking 100 calls a day --
15 Q. Per person?
16 A. Per person -- and that's saying one dispute
17 per person. That's still a lot of CDVs being sent out
18 and being sent back to the center.
19 And most of your phone reps are not going
20 to see those CDVs. The only time that we can see any
21 result is if that consumer calls back in again either
22 still protesting or has a different dispute that you
23 can pull it up and see what the response was.
24 Q. Now, after CDVs were outgoing and incoming and
25 any changes were made to a file, there would be a CDF
73
1 sent to the consumer; is that true?
2 A. That's a final.
3 Q. That's a post-reinvestigation report?
4 A. Right.
5 Q. Is there any follow-up to a CDF by Experian?
6 A. No.
7 Q. So if the consumer doesn't contact you again
8 complaining, there would certainly be no further
9 activity with regard to the report?
10 A. That's right.
11 Q. But if a consumer called back in and continued
12 to complain about something you had previously
13 investigated, and perhaps through a perfunctory CDV
14 process the creditor verified it and sent it back to
15 you, isn't the Experian policy to treat that subsequent
16 dispute as frivolous and not even to deal with it at
17 all?
18 A. If it's within the 60-day period, yes.
19 Q. Why would there be -- why would it be not
20 frivolous after 60 days? I mean, what's that about?
21 A. It's too new a dispute. In other words, we've
22 gotten a response back, and as such, it's still too new
23 so...
24 Q. Is it still contained within the on-line
25 retention system?
74
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Let me ask you about record retention. My
3 understanding is that Experian maintains some records
4 for a period of five years if they were a mixed file,
5 theft of identity files?
6 A. (Moving head up and down.)
7 Q. What do you remember about that?
8 A. I only know that files are kept for two years.
9 Q. For two --
10 A. And what they were, be it fraud consumer
11 disputes or a mixed file, two years is the most that I
12 know of.
13 Q. Was it ever discussed with you the Federal
14 Trade Commission's ability to come in and examine
15 Experian files for a period of five years if they were
16 mixed files or theft of identity files?
17 A. It was understood they could come in at any
18 time and examine anything.
19 Q. But the record retention period was -- your
20 understanding was always two years?
21 A. Two years.
22 Q. Did you ever have to research a file that was
23 older than two years?
24 A. Go back into the archives? If it was related
25 to a mixed file -- let's use that as an example.
75
1 Q. Well, let me ask you, where are the archives
2 located?
3 A. In Building A.
4 Q. In Building A. And what is it, microfiche, or
5 is it magnetic tape or a computer or what do you
6 remember?
7 A. I've seen boxes upon boxes upon boxes being
8 taken down to Building A.
9 Q. There were tons of boxes in this building?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And these were the files that were older than
12 two years, true?
13 A. Yes, they were.
14 Q. Now, this Building A that has all these boxes
15 in it, if you had to research some item that was older
16 than two years and you needed to know about what the
17 status of a file was, you could go over there and have
18 someone retrieve the archives?
19 A. Supposedly.
20 Q. Did you ever have to do that?
21 A. I did it one time and didn't get a response
22 back.
23 Q. Where is Building A?
24 A. I'm sorry, that's 600 Experian Parkway.
25 Q. Six hundred. So --
76
1 A. Building --
2 Q. -- is it in the same complex?
3 A. Yes, it is.
4 Q. Is it on the north end of the property or the
5 south end of the property?
6 A. North end of the property.
7 Q. So it's the very northernmost building on that
8 property?
9 A. Exactly.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. Building B is considered to be NCAC, and it's
12 downstairs.
13 Q. Is that the middle building?
14 A. That's the second building.
15 Q. The second building. How many total buildings
16 were there on that facility?
17 A. Two.
18 Q. The building that warehouses all of the
19 magnetic tapes, what is that building called?
20 A. That would have to be in Building A
21 Q. That would be part of Building A?
22 A. Uh-huh, because that's where the database is,
23 is in Building A.
24 Q. Did you -- in the history of your employment
25 at Experian, did you ever see actual physical files --
77
1 papers on consumer reports -- actual physical files as
2 opposed to everything being kept on a computer?
3 A. In what way? I mean, I saw lots of reports.
4 Q. You saw actually hard copy reports --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. -- that were generated? And perhaps a filing
7 room with file folders and file cabinets?
8 A. Exactly.
9 Q. Was there a big room with file cabinets in it?
10 A. After we completed the disputes, we would
11 bundle them up with our cover sheet, put our name and
12 date on it -- this is the written disputes now --
13 and we'd send them out.
14 And there was a filing room that was kind
15 of in the center of Building B, but it stored, oh,
16 gosh, thousands -- thousands of boxes of disputes, but
17 they would be more of the current type of disputes that
18 were handled. And as they become aged, they'd be taken
19 out and taken over to Building A.
20 Q. And they would be stored in Building A?
21 A. Uh-huh.
22 Q. Now, if I understand correctly, the record
23 retention policy on the computer system is for a period
24 of two years?
25 A. Right.
78
1 Q. Now, has that always been the policy during
2 your employment?
3 A. During my NCAC employment. We didn't ever
4 question that when we were working with the
5 subscribers.
6 Q. All right. So if you needed to go back and
7 look at a dispute that a consumer had within a two-year
8 period, you could pull it up there on your terminal and
9 look at the CDI and the CDF and what the notes were
10 pertaining to the dispute?
11 A. Exactly. And if you couldn't find enough
12 information there, you could go back in the file room
13 and pull it out.
14 Q. What about old admin reports? Are those
15 notated on the copies of the credit reports that you
16 could pull up?
17 A. There was an inquiry made by Experian, and
18 there would be a certain number. And you'd know that
19 it was pulled by one of the employees, and the type
20 would be for an admin purpose or a social search or
21 whatever.
22 Q. If you were to look at the person's credit
23 report and there were a number of Experian inquiries on
24 it --
25 A. Uh-huh.
79
1 Q. -- some maybe four or five times in one day,
2 how would you know which ones were admin reports as
3 opposed to just regular report requests, or do they
4 always pull an admin?
5 A. By the type.
6 Q. By the type code on it?
7 A. Uh-huh, by the type code that was on there.
8 You could see whether or not it was an employer or
9 employment -- social security.
10 Q. I happen to have an admin report here. You
11 were afraid I was going to ask that. I have an
12 interesting one here.
13 Vicky, I'm going to show you what has
14 been marked as Exhibit 3 to the deposition of Donna
15 Jackson in the Carol Mixon case, particularly the pages
16 that list a number of inquiries by Experian.
17 You see them starting on that page and
18 going on to the next page, and even on to the next
19 page. Do you see those?
20 A. Yeah, the 499911, that's the employee that
21 pulled it up.
22 Q. So that's the badge number of the employee?
23 A. Exactly.
24 Q. What is the T?
25 A. That's the type of -- that's the type.
80
1 Q. What does that mean?
2 A. The TII?
3 Q. Do you remember?
4 A. The MBNA is a review. I can't remember what
5 the TII is.
6 Q. Let me ask you, when you look at that first
7 page of inquiries, the reference, the REF equals, is
8 that the CAPS ID number that's issued?
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. That is correct?
11 A. It is, yes.
12 Q. So if you were going to look for that
13 particular document somewhere in the archives --
14 A. But the CAPS number is only good on the
15 system.
16 Q. So that's the CAPS ID, but it stays active
17 only in the system for a period of 60 days?
18 A. It's -- yeah, it's 60, 90 days, something like
19 that. Then you have to --
20 Q. Then a new CAPS ID is generated if a new
21 report is accessed, right?
22 A. Exactly, as well as --
23 Q. Does that help --
24 A. -- six months apart.
25 Q. -- Experian delineate between different
81
1 reports that are used in the current dispute process?
2 A. It basically helps Experian determine fraud
3 and mixed files cases. It really does.
4 Q. How so?
5 A. When they're pulling an admin -- I'm talking
6 about the entire admin report now -- when they're
7 pulling an admin, they can see the hits that have
8 been -- the dates of them.
9 And as an example, a fraud case, maybe a
10 first fraud was reported, say, March of '98. Well,
11 they can go in and they can see exactly who was looking
12 at this report in '98 in March, April, February, that
13 area.
14 Q. Do you see other Experian inquiries on there?
15 A. Down here. See, these are all admins here.
16 Q. So there are actually multiple admins shown
17 here?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. February 17, '99; March 23, '99; another on
20 March 23, '99?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. How many other admins are shown just on that
23 inquiry log?
24 A. On this one, there's three here.
25 Q. Okay. Just on that page?
82
1 A. On that -- this page.
2 Q. How many others are shown on that next page?
3 A. Eight admins.
4 Q. Eight admins?
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. If Experian's attorney told the judge that
7 there were only two admins pulled, he's obviously
8 incorrect, according to that report, right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. I mean, my gosh, there was two admins pulled
12 on the same -- here.
13 Q. In fact, let's just take a look at all these
14 dates that all these different admins were pulled.
15 There's February 17, '99; March 23, '99; another on
16 March 23, '99; and there is another on March 23, '99;
17 another on March 1 of '99; one on March 2 of '99; one
18 on March -- I'm sorry -- February 1 of '99;
19 February 2 of '99; February 5 of '99; another on
20 February 5, '99.
21 A. Right.
22 Q. February 14 of '99; March --
23 A. And two on 3/28 --
24 Q. -- 28 of '99; and another on March 28 of '99;
25 and the date of that admin report listing all these
83
1 eight other admins is July 9 of '99?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. Which is prior to the date that the attorney
4 for Experian claims that the second admin was created
5 in November of '99.
6 Do you see any other coding on there that
7 might be helpful for the judge to understand in
8 connection with those Experian admins?
9 A. This is a dispute inquiry.
10 Q. That's an Experian inquiry on January 11?
11 A. It's a dispute that was made. And this is the
12 employee that took the dispute.
13 Q. What about the DCP coding?
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. It's just a different type of report?
16 A. Yeah. There's unknown real estate hits here.
17 Here's another TII. Is this a mixed files that was
18 worked?
19 Q. It was a theft of identity case.
20 A. Fraud.
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. That TII -- original dispute.
23 Q. Is there a particular coding that might appear
24 if the report were a 6X report?
25 A. A 6X report?
84
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. As?
3 Q. A different type of internal report, different
4 from an --
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. -- admin?
7 A. We used to be able, before the new format. We
8 had what we called a 7.
9 Q. 7X report?
10 A. We had the 7X report. And that report was
11 supposedly all inclusive. See, there's your -- this is
12 pulled by a bureau in Louisiana.
13 Q. Where are you reading from?
14 A. Right there.
15 Q. You're telling me that the admin report that
16 was accessed on July 9 --
17 A. This report, this report that you have right
18 here --
19 Q. Exhibit No. 3 was an admin report pulled by
20 the Louisiana bureau?
21 A. That says BLA4.
22 Q. Does that indicate the person who accessed
23 it, or does that indicate a geographic region that
24 Experian may attract?
25 A. It means this particular file is a bureau
85
1 file.
2 Q. Okay. But that's contractually between
3 Experian and one of its subscribers?
4 A. Exactly. This is the version that they're
5 using of the system.
6 Q. When you say V --
7 A. 601?
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. That's the version of software that they had
10 from Experian.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. To pull the report.
13 Q. But from what you're seeing there, that admin
14 report was actually generated in Shreveport?
15 A. Well, it's saying here that -- it looks to me
16 like it was pulled from Shreveport.
17 Q. Did you-all have any ability to pull credit
18 bureau files from the Experian system which may have
19 contractually been assigned to a particular affiliate
20 bureau?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So there were no impediments to your ability
23 to make changes or corrections to bureau-owned files,
24 as Experian likes to refer to them, right?
25 A. There was a certain number of us that had that
86
1 access, but the majority of the people did not.
2 Q. So there were people in the bull pen who could
3 not have made changes to files in the geographic Zip
4 code, quote, unquote, owned by an affiliate, but then
5 there were people who did have the right to do it at
6 Experian, right?
7 A. Your mixed file department had the -- they
8 could do it, fraud could do it, CASS could do it. I
9 was even one that could pull bureau reports.
10 But normally when -- after you get all
11 the information, the name and the address and the
12 social security number, etc., and the file is coming
13 up, it will say bureau.
14 Q. So if it's been suggested by Experian's
15 attorney to the judge that if a consumer lived in a
16 geographic Zip code assigned by Experian to an
17 affiliate, that Experian employees could never access
18 that file, only affiliate employees could, then that
19 would be wrong?
20 A. That's wrong.
21 Q. Okay. So if you had a fraud case or merged
22 file or there was some other problem with it, you-all
23 had the ability to work with a consumer regardless of
24 where he lived?
25 A. That's right.
87
1 Q. Were there occasions where Experian's policy
2 dictated that you should tell the consumer to go back
3 to the affiliate bureau?
4 A. Yes. Most --
5 Q. So there were --
6 A. Most of your reps, like I said, could not pull
7 up the credit report, your everyday consumer rep.
8 Q. But that was an impediment that Experian put
9 into their own computer system, right?
10 A. Exactly. And they were forced to tell that
11 consumer, you're going to have to contact the bureau
12 and here's the telephone number.
13 Q. Why was that? Simply shifting the cost of
14 having to fool with the consumer back onto the
15 affiliate?
16 A. Well, basically, it's what the affiliate had
17 contracted for. I mean, they're supposed to maintain
18 the files of the people in that area.
19 Q. But Experian would sell that same information
20 file and make a profit off of it --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. -- while denying access and responsibility to
23 the consumer?
24 A. Yes. I used to be able to go in and open up
25 the bureau files.
88
1 Q. So it was possible to be done there at
2 Experian, but Experian had decided to contract away
3 reinvestigation responsibilities to some smaller
4 affiliate bureaus and, in turn, would turn consumer's
5 away and back to the affiliate bureau?
6 A. Yes. And I have none also that even if I were
7 not able to access the report or I -- I'd have to tell
8 that consumer to contact the bureau and I'd have to
9 give them the telephone number of that bureau.
10 If I was able to access the report and
11 the consumer states, well, I've had fraud committed
12 against me, we were told to send -- to write it up and
13 send it out to the bureau, rather than send it back to
14 our fraud department.
15 Q. Now, at Experian, you-all had all of the
16 addresses and phone numbers for all the subscribers,
17 right?
18 A. The majority of the addresses. I mean, on the
19 floor, we didn't always have the telephone numbers.
20 Q. Why not?
21 A. They weren't given to us.
22 Q. I mean, Experian, as the company, had the
23 right to refuse to take information from a company or
24 to give them credit reports or sell them credit reports
25 if they didn't give them a phone number, right?
89
1 A. The problem was, is that when we'd go to look
2 up the subscriber, it would be an old number or a bad
3 number. It wasn't updated that often.
4 Q. So Experian didn't --
5 A. And if they had a number listed.
6 Q. Experian didn't make them supply phone numbers
7 to the NCAC employees?
8 A. No.
9 Q. But you-all had a direct check file that you
10 could actually go in and look up a number of the
11 subscribers and their phone numbers, true?
12 A. If they were accurate.
_________________
David Szwak
Chairman, Consumer Protection Section, Louisiana State Bar Association
Bodenheimer, Jones & Szwak, LLC
416 Travis Street, Suite 1404
Mid South Tower
Shreveport, Louisiana 71101
318-424-1400
Fax 318-221-6555 |
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13 Q. What was the policy of Experian about sharing
14 that information with the consumer so that the consumer
15 could contact the subscriber directly by phone if they
16 chose to?
17 A. We were told in training that we were supposed
18 to tell the consumer to call the number on the
19 statement or on their card -- credit card -- to contact
20 the subscriber.
21 If they turned around and said, well, I
22 don't have my credit card anymore or I don't have any
23 statements, then we would go and look.
24 Q. But isn't it true that Experian had directed
25 the NCAC employees not to give out subscriber phone
90
1 numbers?
2 A. Yes, the numbers that we had.
3 Q. Okay. What phone numbers might you be able to
4 provide them?
5 A. I had my own phone book that I carried over
6 from the credit file department, and I had quite a few
7 of current subscriber numbers.
8 Q. Would you have had points deducted from your
9 quality as a result of your willingness to give
10 consumers phone numbers?
11 A. Absolutely.
12 Q. Were you ever reprimanded for giving a
13 consumer a phone number?
14 A. Absolutely.
15 Q. Well, that doesn't seem to be very helpful on
16 the part of Experian to reprimand and punish an
17 employee who's trying to help the consumer on something
18 as simple as giving them a phone number to contact the
19 subscriber?
20 A. But the subscriber pays our bread and butter,
21 and they do not need to be annoyed.
22 Q. They considered it an annoyance?
23 A. That's right.
24 Q. In essence, when you have to fool with a
25 consumer and their complaint, that's not a
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1 profit-making function at Experian?
2 A. No, it is not.
3 Q. Is that made pretty clear that this is not
4 profit making?
5 A. Absolutely.
6 Q. And, in fact, profit making is when you sell
7 credit reports, right?
8 A. Profit making is when you sell a credit report
9 and when you sell the information from the credit
10 report.
11 Q. And so handling consumer disputes is not
12 profit making and, in fact, costs them money?
13 A. Exactly.
14 Q. And so they would like to put as much of that
15 back onto the affiliate bureaus as possible --
16 A. Exactly.
17 Q. -- true? And to deter consumers from being
18 able to gain access to the call center?
19 A. Exactly.
20 Q. Such as maybe an automated answering system
21 from hell, right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And maybe even through things like deterring
24 consumers from contacting the subscribers to further
25 complain about errors on their credit reports?
92
1 A. Exactly.
2 Q. From time to time did you work with the
3 suppression codes and suppression functions within the
4 credit reporting system at Experian?
5 A. To suppress an account that was on there?
6 Q. To suppress any type of information that might
7 be wrong.
8 A. Most of the time it was deleting.
9 Q. Just deleting?
10 A. Deleting it.
11 Q. But deleting would allow the information to be
12 re-reported?
13 A. Exactly.
14 Q. So unless you actually suppress it out of a
15 system, it's possible, if not highly likely, that the
16 subscribers, unless they've cleared their tapes, will
17 just report the information right back in?
18 A. Exactly.
19 Q. Were you ever directed as to when to delete as
20 opposed to when to suppress?
21 A. Delete, obviously, when you had proof either
22 via the phone or paper. Suppression was an item that
23 was to be suppressed during the time of a dispute.
24 But then they did away with the
25 suppression, and it would mark on the credit report a
93
1 little asterisk-type thing or some type of mark on the
2 credit report that would denote that that particular
3 item was under dispute.
4 But suppression, at the time where I
5 started, was to suppress the entire item from a
6 creditor from pulling up a report and seeing that
7 particular item until it was resolved.
8 Q. Okay. So if you went in and suppressed an
9 item from the credit report, it would suppress it from
10 ever appearing on that consumer's report again.
11 What about from other consumers that that
12 item might attach to, a different file with different
13 identifiers?
14 A. Not unless you went into that file and
15 suppressed it.
16 Q. You had to suppress it across the board on all
17 possible --
18 A. Exactly.
19 Q. -- permutations of identification?
20 A. No. The only way that it could be done
21 quickly, expediently is -- as an example, a subscriber
22 no longer subscribed.
23 Q. If that subscriber no longer subscribed, you
24 didn't have to worry about new incoming --
25 A. That's right.
94
1 Q. -- data on it if you could simply delete it
2 off the system and it would never appear again. But
3 let's say for your big retailers -- which we've
4 discussed already having a lot of fraud files -- if
5 they didn't clear their internal tapes prior to having
6 you delete it, then it would certainly come right back
7 onto the system --
8 A. It would.
9 Q. -- through a deletion, right?
10 A. It would.
11 Q. Now, if they went in and suppressed the
12 item --
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. -- it would suppress it only as to the
15 consumer identification in connection with a report
16 through which you suppressed it, right?
17 A. Exactly.
18 Q. It wouldn't apply if a permutation of that
19 identification came up?
20 A. Exactly.
21 Q. Okay. Now, what about the suppression
22 functions that key off of name or address? Let me give
23 you an example of what I mean by that.
24 What if they were to suppress a
25 particular name and/or address as being fraud related?
95
1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. Were you ever aware of such a function being
3 able of suppressing other trade or public records items
4 in the report that connect to that address?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. How did that work?
7 A. Again, it was done through an admin. And
8 you'd be able to tell on the admins as to the address,
9 the fraud address. And it would relate back down to
10 the account.
11 Q. If I showed you an item right here where the
12 EXEL equals 777 --
13 A. Exclusion.
14 Q. That's a suppression function?
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. Do you know what suppression function that is
17 based upon that coding?
18 A. The 777.
19 Q. What does that mean, though, in lay terms --
20 or I guess I ought to ask you, does that appear to be
21 an address-related suppression function?
22 A. Yes, it does.
23 Q. So if any item were reported in using that
24 exact address, then it should suppress that item from
25 the report?
96
1 A. Uh-huh, yes.
2 Q. But if the address were different in any way,
3 then it would bypass that suppression function; is that
4 true?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. When you were dealing with a fraud case where
7 there might be fraud addresses, permutations of names,
8 did they instruct you to use that type of
9 address-related suppression function in lieu of using a
10 direct suppression on the trade, or was it just, you
11 know, sort of free form, do whatever you think is best?
12 A. A lot of it was supposed to be an educated
13 judgment call. Now, I was never thoroughly trained in
14 fraud, so I wouldn't assume something like that. I
15 would turn it over to the fraud department, but the
16 fraud department itself, yes, it was their discretion.
17 Q. Let me ask you if this would be true. In July
18 of 1996 --
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. -- several major magazines reported that TRW,
21 now Experian, TransUnion, and Equifax were getting
22 somewhere in the area of 800 phone calls a day on
23 fraud, theft of identity cases alone.
24 Now, if they only have 40 people handling
25 those at the current time --
97
1 A. They'd be blocked.
2 Q. I'm sorry?
3 A. They'd be blocked.
4 Q. Blocked in what way?
5 A. When the phones are overloaded, they'd cut
6 them off at so many in the queue, and then they'd block
7 the rest until they were caught up, and then they'd
8 turn it back on again.
9 Q. Well, I'm not aware of that. Is that
10 something they do?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Tell me about how that works.
13 A. It's the same thing as on the floor itself.
14 Say you have 15,000 calls holding. Well, there's not
15 15,000 people to take those calls.
16 Q. Right.
17 A. So they'll keep maybe 700 in the queue, and
18 then they'll block -- they'll tell you to call back at
19 a later time, that all reps are busy.
20 Q. Like a peak volume calling time or something?
21 A. Exactly.
22 Q. And the entire time, they're laying off people
23 and downsizing the call center?
24 A. Exactly.
25 Q. Let me ask you this. When you were at
98
1 Experian, did they ever acquire a new computer system
2 different from the actual computer hardware that was
3 used when TRW was operating?
4 A. Yes. It's called File One.
5 Q. Was it an actual new computer hardware, or was
6 it a new computer software or matching program or --
7 tell me what File One is.
8 A. File One was the software program that was
9 developed and designed by the engineers or techs.
10 Q. Was it a matching program, or was it just a
11 new product like --
12 A. File One was to help eliminate mixed files and
13 fraud.
14 Q. Okay. So File One, which is a -- which it was
15 widely reported and reported through Experian's web
16 site was designed to reduce the number of fraud files
17 and mixed files, right?
18 A. (Moving head up and down.)
19 Q. Would you -- is that correct?
20 A. That's right. I'm sorry.
21 Q. Was that through a tightening of the matching
22 program to require greater points of correspondence?
23 A. As well as the social security number.
24 Q. Oh. So --
25 A. They assigned a --
99
1 Q. An identifier --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. -- to each consumer?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So previously, the matching criterion did not
6 even look at giving an individual identifier to each
7 consumer?
8 A. Exactly.
9 Q. And now their proposal to remedy the problem
10 is to assign us each a universal identifier unique as
11 to Experian's system, right?
12 A. Exactly.
13 Q. And so now each time that you contact
14 Experian, they go looking for your unique identifier to
15 try to link up prior reports --
16 A. Exactly.
17 Q. -- that you were involved in?
18 A. Exactly.
19 Q. But did they actually -- to your knowledge,
20 did it actually improve accuracy by requiring a greater
21 number of corresponding points of information between
22 the file data and the input inquiry data?
23 A. When File One first went into effect, it was
24 the biggest disaster you'd ever -- ever want to see.
25 Q. Why so?
=
100
1 A. It -- that identifier identified many people
2 and mixed files.
3 Q. So then suddenly people in the mixed file area
4 were all assigned the same identifier?
5 A. Exactly.
6 Q. And people in the fraud area, suddenly the
7 imposter had access to the unique identifier assigned
8 to a particular victim?
9 A. But that was top secret. Even when we looked
10 at an admin report and we saw an identifier, we weren't
11 supposed to release that to the consumer.
12 Q. Let me ask you, what was -- what was the
13 benefit, if any, from this File One?
14 A. Since I did not work in NCAC prior to File
15 One, all I can say is from my own experience. And I
16 think their money could have been well-spent elsewhere
17 because I don't think File One is capable of
18 eliminating the problems that they wanted to.
19 Q. I took a deposition of a lady named Judith
20 Chipley in a case called William Sheridan versus
21 Equifax and lots of others down in the middle district
22 of Florida. And she testified that in her experience
23 as a mortgage reporting investigator and a mortgage
24 reporting company, one of the largest ones in South
25 Florida, she found a 50 to 90 percent error rate on
=
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1 credit reports she reviewed.
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. Would you agree or disagree with that general
4 assessment?
5 A. Yes, I would agree with that.
6 Q. What is causing so many errors in so many
7 files?
8 A. This is my own opinion, but I feel a lot of it
9 has to do with the fact that the subscribers
10 themselves, when they're reporting information on a
11 consumer, that they're only reporting minimal amount of
12 information -- identification.
13 In other words, if Vicky Thompson has an
14 account with Fleet Bank and she lives in Princeton and
15 that's all they put in, as I stated before, there's
16 another Vicky Thompson.
17 Q. And it would cause it to post across all of
18 those files?
19 A. Exactly.
20 Q. Well, what about on the many banks and credit
21 card companies and other lenders who use full
22 identifiers, such as name, address, social, date of
23 birth?
24 Is it also the case that Experian,
25 through allowing subscribers to pull credit reports
=
102
1 using far less than full identifying information
2 actually foments the problem by generating and issuing
3 credit reports that are way too broad and contain
4 extraneous information and garbage that has merged into
5 the file?
6 A. That happens, especially with your collection
7 agencies. They come into Experian and they request
8 address updates, as an example. And all they normally
9 give you is a name and maybe a city and a state.
10 When you pull that address update, it's
11 got maybe seven, eight different people listed on there
12 with their social security numbers, with their
13 addresses, their employer, their wife's name.
14 Q. And they're subsequently reported under all of
15 those identities?
16 A. Exactly.
17 Q. Which causes mass chaos and inaccuracies in
18 the files?
19 A. Exactly, yes.
20 Q. Okay. The --
21 THE WITNESS: Is it midnight yet?
22 MR. VAN BEUSTRING: Off the record.
23 (Discussion off the record.)
24 EXAMINATION
25 BY MR. VAN BEUSTRING:
=
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1 Q. Ms. Thompson, I appreciate you coming and
2 speaking with us tonight. I've got just a few
3 questions dealing with obsolete accounts.
4 And as you testified previously, that was
5 a large problem at Experian?
6 A. Yes, it was, a large problem.
7 Q. Why would you say it was a large problem?
8 A. When you're dealing with recovery, debt
9 collectors, collection agencies, even some of the
10 direct subscribers themselves like, maybe, Bally's had
11 their own collectors. Perimeter was their collector.
12 These people don't care if the
13 information is accurate or not. And when you go and
14 dispute it with them, they just -- they don't even
15 research it. You know when that dispute form comes
16 back in five, ten days, you know they haven't
17 researched it and they've checked off it's to remain,
18 period.
19 Q. And are a lot of those done via automated
20 verification?
21 A. As far as a dispute, no. It would be a CDV
22 coming back again.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. And they would have to contact the center here
25 in Allen in order to report what their response is.
=
104
1 Q. How long did it take you when you started to
2 work for the consumer section to determine that these
3 obsolete accounts were a large problem?
4 A. About four months into working at NCAC -- 30
5 days in, 30 days out, your 160-hour work week and your
6 files that you'd do extra, you could start seeing right
7 away.
8 Q. So you would say that most of your comrades
9 trying to assist the consumer would see the same issues
10 that you did?
11 A. Oh, absolutely. I mean, it could be that old
12 saying too, that is, the cup half full or half empty --
13 Q. Right.
14 A. -- aspect. But when you look at an account
15 and it's been disputed, and they come back and they say
16 it's to remain, you phone verify. That was the first
17 thing that you'd do. You call up and phone verify.
18 Q. But at a later time, you were instructed by
19 management that you were not to phone verify?
20 A. Exactly.
21 Q. And you were supposed to use the speed
22 process?
23 A. Exactly. And then when the consumer would
24 call back in and say, I disputed it, but it's still on
25 my credit report, you would have to tell them to go to
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1 the -- a creditor.
2 Q. And did you and your fellow employees working
3 in the same department, did you ever discuss these
4 issues of a problem?
5 A. Yes, we did.
6 Q. Did they acknowledge that they saw the same
7 obsolete accounts?
8 A. On the credit report, yes.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You stated that at one time you complained
12 about United Recovery?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. In that you saw numerous instances where they
15 had altered the date of last activity in order to keep
16 it on the reports?
17 A. And they had even altered the original
18 delinquency date in order to keep it on the credit
19 report.
20 Q. At that time, you went and -- went to the
21 security section; is that right?
22 A. I reported 11 different circumstances, 11
23 different disputes to security compliance, which that
24 was the office that was to oversee the subscribers and
25 make sure they were adhering to the law and doing what
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1 they were supposed to be doing.
2 Q. So they were the watchdog of the subscriber to
3 make sure no dirty tricks were --
4 A. Exactly.
5 Q. Who was it that told you that that is our
6 bread and butter and not to mess with this anymore?
7 A. I not only heard it from security compliance,
8 I also heard it from a supervisor, and I also heard it
9 from John Sprague.
10 Q. And who is John Sprague?
11 A. The vice president of the center.
12 Q. So not only is upper management acknowledging
13 that they do not want you messing with this area of
14 obsolescence, the department who is in charge of
15 keeping these subscribers in check also does not want
16 you messing with the area of obsolescence?
17 A. Exactly. And they especially don't want you
18 to phone verify a questionable account on the credit
19 report.
20 Q. And you testified previously that if the
21 consumer were to contact a subscriber directly, they
22 would view that as an annoyance?
23 A. If we gave them the information to do so. If
24 we gave them the telephone number to contact the
25 subscriber, the subscriber looks at it as an annoyance
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1 and they really don't want you to.
2 Q. And in your opinion, why do you think that the
3 vice president of that section of Experian and the
4 security division --
5 A. Compliance.
6 Q. -- compliance, why would they say not to worry
7 about that?
8 A. Basically because they're concerned about
9 income coming in. They're concerned about what that
10 company pays Experian to place that information on the
11 credit report. And they don't want anything to happen
12 to that.
13 Q. So if you were to -- if you were to cause the
14 subscriber to delete that information, that would not
15 make the subscriber happy?
16 A. No, it would not.
17 Q. Ergo it would not make Experian happy because
18 they may not use Experian in the future and may use
19 some other bureau?
20 A. Exactly.
21 Q. One of the competitors?
22 A. One that's more lenient.
23 Q. More lenient --
24 A. Basically the subscriber looked at Experian as
25 a means to obtain information on a consumer for
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1 granting -- for the purpose of granting credit or for
2 collection or for employment purposes.
3 But when it came to supplying the
4 information on a consumer to us, they truly expected
5 Experian to take care of all the problems with that
6 consumer. They don't want to be bothered with that
7 consumer.
8 They do not want to talk to a consumer
9 unless it is to get a credit card or let the consumer
10 get a credit card, obtain a credit card or whatever
11 type thing.
12 But as far as a complaint is concerned,
13 as far as a dispute is concerned or a questionable item
14 on the credit report, those subscribers don't want to
15 talk to those people.
16 And when I worked the credit files you'd
17 hear it and they'd tell me, I don't want to talk to
18 those idiots, I don't want to talk to those people.
19 And it would be various different subscribers.
20 Q. So you were essentially the shield for the
21 creditor?
22 A. That's what they basically wanted from us.
23 But as a consumer rep, if you're being taught policy,
24 procedure, and law, and you're trying to help the
25 consumer, truly help the consumer and not just collect
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1 a paycheck, you're caught between a rock and a hard
2 place.
3 Q. Would it be an accurate statement, based on
4 what you've told us, the incentives and the punishment
5 that you would receive, it seems like the more you
6 would -- that a rep like yourself would want to help
7 the consumer and take actions for the consumer, the
8 more that that would be frowned upon by Experian?
9 A. It is. It is. Again, we go back to the
10 quota. We go back to expediency. And to be quite
11 honest with you, right now today, I would not want to
12 work in that center because they have to be underneath
13 an insurmountable amount of pressure in that center
14 since the FTC has fined them.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. Because that has got to be -- the stress level
17 has got to be unreal.
18 Q. So the quicker they can get that consumer off
19 the phone, the better, regardless if they help them or
20 not?
21 A. Exactly. I've seen reps transfer to the main
22 number. I've seen reps tell them, you know, call back
23 or send in your proof to us and we'll dispute it that
24 way. I mean, the reps weren't all -- not everyone was
25 willing to help.
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1 MR. VAN BEUSTRING: Off the record.
2 (Discussion off the record.)
3 Q. Ms. Thompson, did you ever witness Experian
4 employees discarding incoming consumer correspondence
5 via shredding it or throwing it in the trash?
6 A. We didn't have a shredder. It would be thrown
7 into a garbage receptacle in our copy room. And, yes,
8 I've seen files laying in there all the time that
9 hadn't been worked.
10 And the reason why you could tell they
11 hadn't been worked is they'd have a current date on
12 there, but there would be no ID as to the employee
13 number and the date of it that it was worked. So
14 they'd be just stamped received.
15 Q. Did you ever inquire into that?
16 A. Not really. To be honest about it, no, I
17 didn't, because I thought if somebody is doing it,
18 they're going to get caught. There was cameras all
19 throughout the building. Why do something that stupid.
20 Q. But you saw that on an everyday basis?
21 A. Yes. Daily you would go into a garbage can
22 and look at it.
23 Q. See unprocessed correspondence?
24 A. Disputes. Oh, there was one occasion of one
25 individual that was on my team that I physically saw
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1 her doing it, and I went to my supervisor and told her.
2 Q. Why would Experian employees, representatives,
3 discard incoming mail?
4 A. Because when you go to the file room, you log
5 out so many files that you're going to work. And if
6 you didn't work them, then you had to return them, and
7 that didn't count for production. But if you threw
8 them in the garbage, that was production. How was
9 anybody supposed to know.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. Because you'd get bundles. The files were
12 kept in bundles. You'd have 50 disputes in a bundle;
13 or if it was CDIs, it was like 100 disputes in a
14 bundle.
15 And you'd sign out however many bundles
16 you thought you could work. And supposedly you were
17 supposed to work them.
18 MR. VAN BEUSTRING: Okay.
19 EXAMINATION
20 BY MR. Szwak:
21 Q. Vicky, let me ask you about the VIP database.
22 Are you familiar with it?
23 A. I know it was there.
24 Q. I'm sorry?
25 A. I know it was there.
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1 Q. What is the VIP database?
2 A. A VIP database was something that was
3 supposedly to handle important and discriminated
4 reports, in other words.
5 Q. Celebrities?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. The President?
8 A. Possibly.
9 Q. Maybe Jones Day attorneys?
10 A. But I'll tell you what, if you pulled the
11 President's report, you better have a ready answer for
12 doing it -- real quick.
13 Q. So there was a particular section of the
14 credit reporting database where access was not allowed?
15 A. Exactly.
16 Q. What criterion was used to decide whose report
17 is on-line and readily accessed as opposed to whose is
18 not?
19 A. Well, this is an odd part. When I worked for
20 credit file, I could pull anybody's report. It didn't
21 limit me as to -- as an example, Donald Trump, I pulled
22 his report. I pulled Red Buttons' report -- I can't
23 even name all of them -- Kenny Rogers' report. I mean,
24 there was so many.
25 But there was nothing there to stop me.
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1 And I was told that the reason why I could do it was
2 because of the version of software that we were using
3 in credit file that would allow me to do this, but that
4 not everybody -- not every subscriber has that version.
5 Their given various different versions of it.
6 Q. So different versions restrict access to
7 certain files?
8 A. Exactly.
9 Q. How are the files coded so as to be
10 recognized, or do you know?
11 A. I don't.
12 Q. You don't know. You just know it does happen?
13 A. It does happen.
14 Q. Have you ever heard of the bad boy
15 procedures --
16 A. No.
17 Q. -- at Experian?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Having to do with fraud handling and certain
20 procedures?
21 A. That's not an expression that I heard
22 readily.
23 Q. I'll show you a page that's got it on there.
24 See if you recognize that particular page.
25 A. (Moving head up and down.)
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1 Q. What does that refer to?
2 A. It's a procedure.
3 Q. For doing what?
4 A. For handling a fraud call.
5 Q. For handling a fraud call?
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. What does it direct the --
8 A. Or a fraud file that you may have to work.
9 The social search and the most likely address -- yes,
10 we were supposed to do a social search. Actually,
11 you're supposed to do an admin rather than a social
12 search.
13 Place the security alert, yes. Create
14 the CAP ID, yes. Replace a mark stating -- that's
15 internal remark stating forward to fraud.
16 Q. If you-all were able to code certain files,
17 such as celebrities -- maybe Jones Day attorneys --
18 with an inability to be accessed by subscribers, why
19 wasn't that done for fraud victims whose credit reports
20 are repeatedly being accessed by the imposter or new
21 waves of fraud by the imposter or the duped creditors
22 and collectors, etc.? Was that ever discussed, or did
23 they ever --
24 A. No.
25 Q. -- indicate why they didn't use that function?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. Would it have been helpful to --
3 A. Not to us.
4 Q. -- to be able to take a consumer off-line like
5 that?
6 A. I'm not sure that it would be. I'm really
7 not.
8 Q. Would it have allowed you some time to take
9 that consumer's file and straighten it out?
10 A. Yes. That, it would.
11 Q. And so then --
12 A. That, it would.
13 Q. -- any incoming data in the meantime which, in
14 large part would be erroneous, would be straightened
15 out and suppressed and corrected?
16 A. And keep any information from getting on
17 there.
18 Q. So it would be helpful to do that?
19 A. It would be, yeah.
20 Q. Plus it would stop any new waves of fraud
21 where the imposter -- as the victim is fighting to
22 correct his report, the imposter is out there creating
23 new waves of fraud that have to be dealt with?
24 A. Exactly. We were told about a Nigerian group
25 here in the United States that that was -- their
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1 primary business was identity fraud.
2 Q. Did you find that at Experian they suggested
3 to you that there were all of these criminals out there
4 in society who were trying to wreak havoc on the
5 accuracy of Experian's database, and consumers who were
6 hiring credit clinics and lawyers to try to get
7 accurate information deleted off of their system?
8 A. The biggest problem, I would say, would be the
9 credit clinics, yes.
10 Q. How do you know which ones were truly credit
11 clinics and which ones were legitimate consumers with a
12 real beef?
13 A. Over the phone, it was hard. It was a
14 difficult process. It really was. But as far as the
15 written dispute was concerned, there was always kind of
16 the same format that came out of a credit clinic.
17 Q. Same form letters?
18 A. Type of a form letter, yeah.
19 Q. Fill in the blank stuff?
20 A. Exactly. It would say "not mine, not mine,"
21 Q. It wouldn't require a rocket scientist to
22 figure out?
23 A. Oh, no. No, no. Then you'd pull up the file
24 and you'd look and you'd see all those "not mines" had
25 been disputed three or four times before.
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1 Q. Vicky, when you -- when a consumer contacted
2 you while you were at Experian and had a fraud
3 complaint, and you pulled up an admin, you were easily
4 able to see there's two different sets of addresses,
5 two different pools of data, the fraud data all coming
6 in in a short period of time, the consumer's accurate
7 history stemming back historically for years. You were
8 able to see all that, right?
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. And so I asked Experian the question, why
11 would it take more than five or ten minutes to resolve
12 an entire fraud case if you had that type of
13 information right there in the form of an admin report?
14 A. But the problem lies in the fact that on an
15 admin report, if you have -- let's use an address as an
16 example -- the address was reported by the fraud
17 person.
18 Now, a credit report has been pulled by a
19 subscriber to review the credit report. He sees this
20 new address that's sitting on there, so he thinks the
21 consumer has moved. So he changes the address to the
22 fraud address on his records. So when you go in there,
23 you've got two hits on that address already.
24 Q. But if the consumer is telling you that that
25 address is fraud, through your suppression function and
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1 address relation, you should able to suppress out all
2 of the false data all in one sitting in five, ten
3 minutes?
4 A. It doesn't work that way because you'd still
5 have to verify it.
6 Q. It doesn't work that way because Experian
7 doesn't want it to work that way, right?
8 A. The way they go about it, it would appear.
9 Q. It appears that way?
10 A. Exactly.
11 Q. And if it looks like a duck and quacks --
12 A. Then it must be a duck.
13 Q. Good enough.
14 MR. Szwak: That's all the questions I've
15 got.
16 MR. VAN BEUSTRING: That's it.
17 (End of Examination at 7:18 p.m.)
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1 CORRECTIONS AND SIGNATURE
2 PAGE/LINE CORRECTION REASON FOR CHANGE
3 ______________________________________________________
4 ______________________________________________________
5 ______________________________________________________
6 ______________________________________________________
7 ______________________________________________________
8 ______________________________________________________
9 ______________________________________________________
10 ______________________________________________________
11 ______________________________________________________
12 ______________________________________________________
13 ______________________________________________________
14 ______________________________________________________
15
16 I, VICKY THOMPSON, have read the foregoing
deposition and hereby affix my signature that same is
17 true and correct except as noted herein.
18
__________________________
19 VICKY THOMPSON
20 STATE OF TEXAS )
Subscribed and sworn to before me by the said
21 witness, VICKY THOMPSON, on this the ________ day of
____________________, 19______.
22
23 __________________________
NOTARY PUBLIC IN AND FOR
24 THE STATE OF TEXAS
25 My Commission Expires:
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1 STATE OF TEXAS )
2 I, Sunny Schaen, a Certified Shorthand Reporter in
3 and for the State of Texas, do hereby certify that the
4 facts as stated in the caption hereto are true, and
5 that the foregoing 118 pages are a full, true, correct
6 and complete transcript of the proceedings had on the
7 date and at the place set forth.
8 GIVEN UNDER MY HAND AND SEAL of office on
9 this _______ day of _________________, 2000.
10
11
12 ______________________________________
SUNNY SCHAEN, Texas CSR #3638
13 Expiration Date: 12-31-01
LORIE GRAHAM REPORTING SERVICE, INC.
14 4144 N. Central Expressway, Suite 1150
Dallas, Texas 75204
15 (214) 826-2322 FAX NO. (214) 821-7535
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_________________
David Szwak
Chairman, Consumer Protection Section, Louisiana State Bar Association
Bodenheimer, Jones & Szwak, LLC
416 Travis Street, Suite 1404
Mid South Tower
Shreveport, Louisiana 71101
318-424-1400
Fax 318-221-6555 |
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