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 Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:45 pm Post subject: XPN: Patrick Young, Experian: Deposition |
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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS
GALVESTON DIVISION
CARLOS E. VELEZ, )
)
Plaintiff, )
)
vs. ) No. G-00-537
)
UNIFUND CORPORATION, )
)
Defendant. )
_____________________________)
DEPOSITION OF PATRICK YOUNG
Irvine, California
Friday, June 29, 2001
Reported by:
SHERYL HILTON MEYER
CSR No. 2852
JOB No. 589403
1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS
2 GALVESTON DIVISION
3
4 CARLOS E. VELEZ, )
)
5 Plaintiff, )
)
6 vs. ) No. G-00-537
)
7 UNIFUND CORPORATION, )
)
8 Defendant. )
_____________________________)
9
10
11
12
13
14
15 Deposition of PATRICK YOUNG, taken
16 on behalf of Plaintiff at 5 Park Plaza,
17 Suite 1100, Irvine, California, beginning
18 at 1:21 p.m. and ending at 5:42 p.m. on
19 Friday, June 29, 2001, before SHERYL
20 HILTON MEYER, Certified Shorthand Reporter
21 No. 2852.
22
23
24
25
2
1 APPEARANCES:
2
3 For Plaintiff:
4 WEITINGER & DRESSLER
BY: BRETT DRESSLER
5 Attorney at Law
1900 North Memorial Way
6 Houston, Texas 77007-8319
(713) 864-1888
7
For Defendant Unifund:
8
STATMAN, HARRIS, SIEGEL & EYRICH, LLC
9 BY: WILLIAM B. FECHER
Attorney at Law
10 2900 Chemed Center
255 East Fifth Street
11 Cincinnati, Ohio 45202
(513) 587-4446
12
For Experian and Deponent:
13
Jones, DAY, REAVIS & POGUE
14 BY: JEROME R. DOAK
BY: BRIAN A. FARLOW
15 Attorneys at Law
2727 North Harwood Street
16 Dallas, Texas 75201-1515
(214) 220-3939
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3
1 INDEX
2 WITNESS EXAMINATION
3 PATRICK YOUNG
4
5 BY MR. DRESSLER 5, 130, 154
6 BY MR. FECHER 59, 148, 157
7
8
9 EXHIBITS
10 YOUNG PAGE
11 A TRW Subscriber Service Agreement; 4 pages 7
12 B Experian Personal Credit Report; 8 pages 48
13 C Experian Correction Summary; 1 page 53
14 D Experian.txt; 1 page 54
15 E 6-6-00 letter from Unifund to Thomas Hamrick, 145
Esq. re lawsuit; 1 page
16
F Account Information re Carlos E. Velez; 157
17 2 pages
18
19
20 MARKED FOR COUNSEL
21 Page Line
22 33 19
23
24
25
4
1 Irvine, California - Friday, June 29, 2001
2 1:21 p.m. - 5:42 p.m.
3
4 PATRICK YOUNG,
5 having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified
6 as follows:
7
8 EXAMINATION
1:21P 9 BY MR. DRESSLER:
10 Q Mr. Young, my name is Brett Dressler. First of
11 all, let me say thank you for being here. I understand
12 that you probably have a living to make, and I will not
13 waste your time and do our best to get us out of here.
14 A Thank you.
15 Q First of all, could you state your name for the
16 record, please.
17 A My name is Patrick Young, Y-o-u-n-g.
18 Q Mr. Young, what do you do for a living?
19 A I'm an operations manager for Experian
20 Information Solutions.
21 Q How long have you been with Experian?
22 A I've been with them for about 28 and a half
23 years.
24 Q Now we're going to talk about you personally
25 just a little bit so my jury can get to know you, but
5
1 before we do that I want to spend some time talking about
2 documents, okay? I'm trying to understand what kind of
3 documents you all keep. I understand that you all have
4 a subscriber agreement between what was TRW and now
5 Unifund; is that right?
6 A It should be true.
7 Q Have you ever looked at that or seen the
8 document?
9 MR. DOAK: I'm sorry to interrupt. You said
10 between --
1:22P 11 MR. DRESSLER: What used to be TRW or --
12 MR. DOAK: I'm sorry. I misunderstood.
13 MR. DRESSLER: That's all right.
14 Q So we're all clear, TRW is now Experian; is
15 that right?
16 A That's correct.
17 Q Have you ever seen the subscriber agreement
18 between TRW and Unifund?
19 A No, I have not.
20 Q Have you ever seen a subscriber or service
21 agreement at all between TRW and any of their
22 subscribers?
23 A Yes, I have.
24 Q Are you familiar with the contents of it?
25 A Yes.
6
1 MR. DRESSLER: Well, for the heck of it let's
2 mark this as Exhibit A.
3 (Young Exhibit A was marked for
4 identification by the court reporter.)
5 BY MR. DRESSLER:
6 Q Let me show you what's been marked as Exhibit
7 A, and I take it by your response previously that you've
8 never seen that document or maybe you have.
1:23P 9 A I have not.
10 Q All right. Well, if you would, turn to --
11 I don't know where my copy went -- turn to page 3 of
12 Young A. Does that appear to be the general standard
13 subscriber service agreement that TRW would enter into
14 with subscribers?
15 A It's not the subscriber service agreement that
16 I'm most familiar with. I left the sales organization
17 about eight years ago, and it was laid out differently at
18 that time.
19 Q Okay. Tell me which different departments
20 you've been in over -- did you say 28 years?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Which different departments have you been in
23 say in the last -- well, you can start from the
24 beginning, I guess.
1:24P 25 A Basically I've worked in the database
7
1 management area. I've worked in the sales and
2 administration branch administration and now back in
3 the data operations area.
4 Q Okay. As far as maintaining the database,
5 how physically do you receive your information from
6 Unifund?
7 A I'm not sure, but I believe we receive
8 information from Unifund on physical media.
9 Q Why would you not be sure? Is that just
10 something you don't do?
11 A I don't have responsibility for the day-to-day
12 involvement with Unifund.
13 Q Okay. What kind of physical media do you think
14 it would be?
15 A Chances are very strong it's a 9-track 1600
16 media or a cassette media. Those are the most popular
17 ones.
1:25P 18 Q Do you have any idea how many accounts will
19 show up on, you know, a standard tape?
20 A No, I do not.
21 Q Okay. When I say "any idea," would you think
22 it would be 100,000 or 200,000?
23 A It will vary by the media; in other words,
24 9-track 1600 will contain less volume of records than a
25 3480 or 3490E.
8
1 Q You have obviously gone over my head very
2 quickly.
3 A Sorry.
4 Q Now with a 9-track how many accounts can you
5 physically put on that thing?
6 A I think a 9-track will accommodate close to a
7 million or more.
8 Q And just generally, and I'm not talking about
9 Unifund when I say account, will that 9-track -- and you
10 said it comes in with a million accounts -- is that like
11 for each person? Do you know what I mean? Like would
12 there be a million people, and each person has separate
13 credit accounts?
1:26P 14 A Yes.
15 Q How about the 3480 or 3490E? How many would
16 they hold?
17 A They can probably hold more than five times
18 that volume.
19 Q Do you know if Experian has a retention policy
20 on those tapes, the physical tapes themselves?
21 A Yes, we do.
22 Q What is that policy?
23 A The policy, I believe, is that we maintain the
24 submitted media for 30 days after the information has
25 been put to file, and then we ultimately return it to the
9
1 subscriber.
2 Q Okay. Is that policy written anywhere?
3 A It should be in the document that is between
4 automated media control and the data management operation
5 organization.
6 Q Okay. Tell me about that document. I'm not
7 sure I've seen that. First of all, what would you
8 generally refer to it as?
1:27P 9 A Well, it would probably just be a letter of
10 instruction or an interoffice correspondence that is
11 directed to the management of the department in Allen,
12 Texas, where the data center is that advises them what
13 our need is, and that is subject to change over time. So
14 it's not necessarily a written policy in a company policy
15 manual.
16 Q If I wanted to get a copy of somebody's credit
17 report as it looked in say May 2000, could I do that
18 through Experian?
19 A Not to the best of my knowledge.
20 Q Why not?
21 A Because credit reports are created at the time
22 of inquiry and reflect what the file 1 database looks
23 like at that time.
1:28P 24 Q Okay. I think, and correct me if I'm wrong,
25 but I think you said you probably couldn't get a copy of
10
1 that. Is that a firm I can't do it?
2 A I can't do it.
3 Q All right. You don't know anybody at
4 Experian --
5 A I don't know anybody that can unless something
6 came up that I've never heard of.
7 Q Okay. Fair enough. I understand, and let me
8 be very honest with you because I don't like to pull
9 punches, but the fellows who spoke to you yesterday, and
10 I use that loosely, in the deposition, I've spoken with
11 them, and I know generally what's happened. All right?
12 I don't want to blindside you with anything,
13 so I've spoken with them, and I want to ask you some
14 questions about some subject matter that you all covered
15 yesterday. I understand that you all did some kind of
16 internal audit with regard to Unifund which showed there
17 may be some problems with the quality of the data that
18 they were sending you. Is that true?
1:29P 19 A We didn't do an internal audit. What we did
20 was make a discovery that there were questions about
21 the information being reported which we went in and
22 investigated.
23 Q All right. What did you do, or what did
24 Experian do rather, during the course of that
25 investigation?
11
1 A At that time what we attempted to do, or what
2 we thought we did, was to suppress the information so
3 it would not be displayed, and then we looked at the
4 contents of the information.
5 Q When you looked at the contents of the
6 information, what were you looking for?
7 A We were looking to see if there were any
8 irregularities in dates of occurrence being reported on
9 derogatory items.
10 Q Did you find any irregularities?
1:30P 11 A We had found a date of occurrence equal to a
12 date opened, and that caused us to want to look much
13 further.
14 Q Why?
15 A Because a date opened as reported by a
16 collection agency or bad debt buyer is the date that
17 the account was picked up by that organization, and in
18 most cases the date of occurrence should be earlier than
19 that.
20 Q Okay. Now a moment ago you said that you had
21 found some irregularities wherein the date opened equaled
22 the date of occurrence, and I think you said that caused
23 Experian to want to investigate this further. I want
24 to talk about two things with that. First of all, what
25 exactly concerned you about that?
12
1 A The fact that those dates are close or equal
2 in proximity. As I said, it is not usual for that to
3 occur.
1:31P 4 Q Okay. But why would that be bad? Why would
5 that concern you?
6 A It would concern me if the information was not
7 absolutely correct. Generally there is a longer period
8 of time between the date of occurrence and the date that
9 it's assigned to an agency or purchased.
10 Q Now the second half that I want to talk about
11 is what did you do in continuing your investigation?
12 A We suppressed the information.
13 Q When you say you "suppressed the information,"
14 what exactly does that mean?
15 A We have the capability to invoke a key on the
16 subscriber code number to prevent that information from
17 displaying.
18 Q All right. So what that means is that
19 Unifund's information is not going to appear on
20 Experian's reports any longer or at least temporarily?
1:32P 21 A That's correct.
22 Q Did you actually do anything to investigate
23 though any further than comparing the date opened and the
24 date of occurrence?
25 A The staff proceeded to review more accounts
13
1 than just the one that was identified.
2 Q Let's go back a little bit. When you say more
3 accounts than the ones that were identified, how were
4 those original accounts identified?
5 A I'm not sure what brought it to the attention
6 of the analyst, whether they did it as part of normal
7 review of a monthly submittal.
8 Q Okay. So some analyst reviewed more accounts
9 than those originally identified. Is that a fair
10 statement?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And when they were reviewing these other
13 accounts, what were they supposed to be looking for?
1:34P 14 A They were looking for the proximity of those
15 two particular date fields, the date opened and date of
16 occurrence.
17 Q Now do you have any idea how many accounts
18 originally were identified as potential problems?
19 A No.
20 Q How many accounts did they review in all?
21 A I don't know the number of accounts that were
22 reviewed in total.
23 Q What exactly was your personal involvement in
24 the investigation?
25 A I was not personally involved in the
14
1 investigation. I was basically providing support to the
2 individual analyst.
3 Q Okay. What kind of support?
4 A Support in terms of helping them to understand
5 what they need to look for when looking at this type of
6 data and helping them if they pulled up an account to
7 understand it and understand if there were any exceptions
8 to it.
9 Q Did you all compile any sort of statistics or
10 calculations regarding how many accounts you found that
11 were problematic?
1:35P 12 A I don't believe they did.
13 Q Is there any reason why not?
14 A No, because when they found that there was
15 more than one in there, the account was placed on
16 suppression until they could go back and verify the cause
17 of those accounts.
18 Q Okay. Well, let me try it this way. Was there
19 anything in particular that prompted Experian to make the
20 decision to at least temporarily decide they're not going
21 to put Unifund-supplied data on their reports?
22 A There were two things. One was the fact that
23 we found accounts which had a date of occurrence equal
24 to date opened and the fact that there was a lawsuit in
25 process.
15
1:36P 1 Q Okay.
2 A We took a conservative approach.
3 Q All right. And we don't have any way of
4 finding out how many accounts were -- had roughly the
5 same date of occurrence and date of last activity?
6 A No. I don't have that information.
7 MR. FECHER: Objection. That's not his
8 testimony. He's talking about comparing the date opened
9 and not the date of last activity.
10 MR. DRESSLER: Well, that's a fine point you
11 make, Bill.
12 Q When you say "date opened," what do you mean by
13 that?
14 A The date opened as reported by a bad debt buyer
15 is the date that it was acquired when reported on the
16 tape.
17 Q Okay. What do you mean by "date of
18 occurrence"?
19 A The date of occurrence should be the date
20 of first delinquency that led to the condition being
21 reported as defined in the Metro reporting formats.
1:37P 22 Q When you say "defined in the Metro reporting
23 formats," I assume there is some sort of written set of
24 definitions or policy guide book, something along those
25 lines.
16
1 A There are basically three-ring binders that
2 contain the layout and the reporting requirement
3 information.
4 Q Do you have copies of those?
5 A Yes, we do.
6 Q Who drafts those?
7 A They are drafted by the ACB, which is the
8 Associated Credit Bureaus, our trade association.
9 Q I take it Experian relies on folks like Unifund
10 to follow those guidelines.
11 A Yes, we do.
12 Q Have you ever heard of a term called "date of
13 last activity"?
14 A Yes, I have.
15 Q What is your understanding of the definition of
16 that term?
17 A It could mean many things to many different
18 subscribers and many different people.
1:38P 19 Q Okay. Well, what does it mean to you?
20 A What I've determined that it can mean is it can
21 mean the date of last payment. It can mean the date
22 that -- the last time somebody went into a master file.
23 Again it can mean many different things. We do not use
24 it as an indicator.
25 Q Okay. So let's go to date of occurrence. The
17
1 date of occurrence for Experian means the date of first
2 delinquency; is that right?
3 A That led to the condition being reported, yes.
4 Q Okay. Are you familiar at all, and I don't
5 mean in a lawyer sense, gosh, but insofar as it applies
6 to your daily life, are you familiar with the Fair Credit
7 Reporting Act?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Are you specifically familiar with the
10 seven-year provision within that statute?
11 A Of obsolescence?
12 Q Right.
13 A Yes.
14 Q How does that -- again I'm not asking for a
15 legal opinion -- but insofar as your practice goes, how
16 does that seven-year rule relate to the date of
17 occurrence as you're using it?
1:39P 18 A That particular provision was interpreted and
19 provided to us by our counsel to be taken from the date
20 of first delinquency that led to the condition being
21 reported.
22 Q Okay. So tell me if I'm right or wrong here,
23 but would it then be your policy at Experian that an
24 account should not be reported more than seven years
25 after the date of occurrence?
18
1 A That's true.
2 Q Okay. All right. So now I think I'm getting
3 this. If the date of occurrence is the date that it's
4 acquired, then that would look a little suspicious?
5 A Yes, it would.
6 Q Okay. Why would it be suspicious? I mean
7 spell it out for me.
8 A Well, it would be suspicious to us because in
9 most cases an account will go through an aging process
10 before it's assigned to an external agency or before it's
11 sold to a debt buyer.
1:40P 12 Q Does Experian keep some sort of record as to --
13 well, I can't think of a better term, and so I'm going
14 to throw it out -- some sort of activity file for an
15 individual that may show who is calling and who is
16 inquiring about that account? Is there anything like
17 that that Experian maintains?
18 A Are you asking if we keep that for an
19 individual consumer or for an individual contributor?
20 Q An individual consumer.
21 A The database is set up to accommodate any
22 inquiry into the consumer file.
23 Q Okay. Well, would any inquiry into the
24 consumer file show up, for example, on the credit report
25 that we all could just order through you as consumers?
19
1 A Well, for the most part, yes, and that's
2 generally two years.
1:41P 3 Q If a customer calls up for his own account for
4 whatever reason and wants to file a complaint, would that
5 show up in their own credit report?
6 A That would show up on their credit profile but
7 not to other creditors.
8 Q Okay. Do you know of any correspondence
9 between Experian and Unifund going either way regarding
10 the quality of data they're sending you?
11 A Not right off the top. I mean if there's any
12 correspondence, it would be in the files.
13 Q When you say that, what kind of file would you
14 all have? Would you have a Unifund file?
15 A There is a file for each contributor, yes.
16 Q What kinds of things are in that file?
17 A There should be copies of any written
18 correspondence that went out.
1:42P 19 Q Or received I take it?
20 A Yes.
21 Q What if a consumer had called up to complain
22 about Unifund? Would any kind of notation be made in the
23 Unifund file?
24 A No. Those calls would not be received in the
25 data management area.
20
1 Q Okay. Do you have any way of keeping track of
2 consumer complaints related to Unifund over a period of
3 time -- any period of time?
4 A I don't know if those are maintained by the
5 National Consumer Assistance Center. I don't believe so.
6 Q Okay. Would there be somebody over there that
7 might be a better person to ask?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Who would that be?
10 A Probably Pat Henderson.
_________________
David Szwak
Chairman, Consumer Protection Section, Louisiana State Bar Association
Bodenheimer, Jones & Szwak, LLC
416 Travis Street, Suite 1404
Mid South Tower
Shreveport, Louisiana 71101
318-424-1400
Fax 318-221-6555 |
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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11 Q A consumer -- well, help me out. There is a
12 consumer dispute form, right?
1:43P 13 A Okay.
14 Q I'm going to show it to you, but that's
15 basically the report that you all send out to show that a
16 dispute has been filed and the results of that dispute,
17 right?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Do you all get something from say Unifund or do
20 you send something to Unifund to initiate the dispute?
21 A A consumer dispute verification form is
22 initiated by Experian, or any other repository, when a
23 dispute arises, and it is mailed to the -- or transmitted
24 to the credit grantor, and then that is used to respond
25 back with a reply.
21
1 Q How physically do you all send that consumer
2 dispute verification form?
3 A They can go either through the United States
4 Postal Service or they may go electronically.
5 Q Okay. Have you done any kind of research into
6 Mr. Velez's case in particular?
1:44P 7 A Limited. I've looked at a couple profiles to
8 provide feedback to attorneys.
9 Q When you say you've looked at a couple of
10 profiles, does that mean you looked at a couple of his
11 credit reports?
12 A One credit report, yeah, a couple pages.
13 Q Did you see a consumer dispute verification
14 among those papers that you looked at?
15 A I don't recall that.
16 Q I take it then that you would not know how
17 Experian attempted to verify the dispute in this case
18 with Mr. Velez?
19 A No, I wouldn't.
20 Q Would Experian keep a copy of that dispute
21 verification?
22 A I don't know what the retention is on CDVs
23 unfortunately.
24 Q That's okay. I'll ask the same question. Do
25 you know who would know that?
22
1 A I would check with Pat Henderson. That's a
2 she.
1:45P 3 Q Those are the folks up in Allen?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Okay.
6 MR. DOAK: Just for the record, Counsel, I'm
7 allowing you a lot of latitude to pursue this witness in
8 areas other than the designated area which was about data
9 intake, but I mean I do want to caution you that, you
10 know, he's only being proffered as the witness with
11 respect to those areas. And I understand that you have
12 already spoken to my colleague about your desire to
13 conduct a further deposition of an Experian employee in
14 their consumer relations field who would be more expert
15 in answering in some of those detailed questions.
16 MR. DRESSLER: All right. I'll make you a
17 deal. I'll stop asking questions.
18 Q Let's go way back now. I want to get to know
19 you and who you are. Do you have a high school
1:47P 20 education?
21 A I have a high school education and trade
22 school.
23 Q Okay. What's your trade school in?
24 A Programming.
25 Q How did you first get hooked up with Unifund?
23
1 I didn't mean that. No offense.
2 How did you first get hooked up with Experian?
3 MR. FECHER: We would love to have Mr. Young on
4 our staff.
5 BY MR. DRESSLER:
6 Q It was TRW at the time you went to work for
7 them?
8 A It was TRW at the time, and I was responding to
9 an ad that they had for a data analyst.
10 Q And what exactly does a data analyst do?
11 A A data analyst at that time worked with
12 subscribers to understand their master file and help them
13 to understand the reporting requirements and then to
14 follow that data through the contribution process.
15 Q And I guess this was 1972?
16 A 1973.
17 Q 1973?
1:48P 18 A Early.
19 Q And just so the jury understands, what exactly
20 does TRW, now known as Experian, what do they do?
21 A One of the things we do is to maintain a
22 database of consumer credit information to help people
23 be able to have ready access to credit transactions.
24 Q What did you do after -- how long were you a
25 data analyst?
24
1 A I spent about the first five years with the
2 company in that role.
3 Q What did you do after that?
4 A I went into branch management.
5 Q What does that mean?
6 A Branch management meant that I had
7 responsibility for the sales organization in a remote
8 branch location as well as what was then the operational
9 facilities within that branch.
10 Q Okay. At that time you were mostly managing
11 sales, I guess.
12 A Yes.
13 Q Who would you be selling to?
14 A Any creditor or business that had a need and
15 legitimate purpose to access consumer credit information.
1:49P 16 Q How long did you do that?
17 A I did that from 1977 until January 19- -- I'm
18 sorry -- January '77 until January '94.
19 Q So for a good while.
20 A Yes, about 18 years.
21 Q What happened in '94?
22 A I left the Farmington Hills branch and
23 relocated here in Orange and took an assignment as a
24 senior consultant.
25 Q Is that in Michigan?
25
1 A Yes.
2 Q I had a case up there. It has nothing to do
3 with you all. I'm sorry. I was thinking about
4 Farmington Hills.
5 What was the substance of your transfer after
6 you left there? What did you do after that?
7 A After I left there, I came here as a senior
8 consultant working in the operations area.
9 Q Okay. Is that your current position?
10 A No. My current position is operations manager.
1:50P 11 Q Okay. What did you do as a senior consultant
12 in operations?
13 A At that time I had the responsibility to
14 manage about 24 people who were defined as major account
15 specialists that actually did the liaison work between
16 major customers and our data operations organization.
17 Q Okay. And how did your role differ now as the
18 operations manager?
19 A As the operations manager I only have people
20 reporting to me that are functionally loading information
21 and auditing information to file.
22 Q Would it be fair to say that you have spent
23 really 28 years helping TRW and Experian in one way or
24 another communicate with its customers?
25 A Yes.
26
1 Q During that 28 years you've obviously become
2 extremely familiar with how Experian maintains its
3 database.
1:51P 4 A Yes.
5 Q I take it you've been familiar with how most of
6 the customers maintain their databases?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Just so you know, some of this is going to be
9 repetitive, so you know.
10 A Okay.
11 Q I told you I was not going to waste your time,
12 but for all these purposes it's going to be repeated so
13 I can get it back later. Typically speaking, how does
14 Experian get their information from subscribers like
15 Unifund?
16 MR. FECHER: Objection. Asked and answered.
17 BY MR. DRESSLER:
18 Q You can answer the question. You can go ahead.
19 A Would you repeat your question? I'm not sure I
20 understood it the first time.
21 Q Typically speaking, how does Experian receive
22 its information regarding consumers from subscribers like
23 Unifund?
1:52P 24 A Are you looking for the media that's utilized?
25 Q Yes. How do they receive the information?
27
1 A Generally it will either come through a media
2 such as 9-track 1600 tapes which is a physical media or
3 a cassette such as a 3480 or 3490 or it is transmitted
4 electronically to us.
5 Q And those different forms of media will contain
6 between 100 and 5 million consumer accounts?
7 A Yes.
8 Q What does Experian do with that data when it
9 receives it?
10 A When the information is received, it is loaded
11 into the system and identified with specific relationship
12 to the owner or submitter of it, and then it is prepared
13 to be loaded to file and loaded to file.
14 Q When you say "loaded to file," what does that
15 mean? Is it kept on a big old tape?
1:53P 16 A No. It's actually removed -- recorded from the
17 submittal media and read into DASD, direct access storage
18 device.
19 Q Is the DASD a continually updated database?
20 A No. DASD is just another media that's used to
21 contain it until it is totally processed and loaded into
22 the actual database. It just prevents us from carrying
23 around tapes.
24 Q And is that database that you just referred to
25 continuously updated?
28
1 A When it's placed in file 1, yes, it's
2 continuously updated.
3 Q And Experian is obviously very concerned about
4 not publishing any accounts for consumers that are --
5 that have more than seven years than the date of
6 occurrence, right?
1:54P 7 A Absolutely.
8 Q Would you explain to the jury everything that
9 you all do to try and prevent that from happening.
10 A Probably the first thing that happens is that
11 we work with our subscribers to make sure that they
12 understand what the expectation is in terms of reporting
13 information.
14 Q Okay. Is that what you call routine business
15 practice?
16 A Yes.
17 Q You do that with all of your subscribers?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And in all likelihood you would have done that
20 with Unifund?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Would you give them any sort of documents to
23 review?
24 A Generally we would provide a CRG, which is a
25 consumer reporting guide, or that is often made available
29
1 through the ACB resource. We provide consultation
2 through our data analysts who work with the subscribers
3 in the reporting process, and we validate and verify the
4 information before it is loaded to file.
1:56P 5 Q Okay. Let's take those one at a time.
6 A Okay.
7 Q The initial consultation where you give the
8 subscriber a CRG, is that like a physical meeting or do
9 you just send it to them in the mail or how does that
10 work?
11 A It often is handled through a telephone
12 conference. It can be done that way instead of a
13 face-to-face meeting.
14 Q Typically how long do these conferences last?
15 A They can last from an hour to two or more.
16 Q Do you all perform any sort of inspection as
17 to your subscriber's premises, the physical premises
18 themselves?
19 A The field sales organization is responsible for
20 that. The data management organization does not.
21 Q To your knowledge they would do that?
22 A They probably would do it if it was a brand-new
23 subscriber being signed up, yes.
1:57P 24 Q Okay. I take it we're getting out of your
25 field here. Will your department make any kind of
30
1 inquiry to a new subscriber as to what type of computer
2 system they're using or --
3 A Yes.
4 Q Okay. Would you also be looking for other
5 information regarding the way the subscriber handles
6 their information?
7 A In terms -- I'm not sure I understand. In
8 terms of what?
9 Q It's a horrible question. Well, during that
10 initial telephone conference when you send a CRG, would
11 you or somebody in your department perform any kind of
12 interview to find out what type of operation the
13 subscriber has?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Okay. And what kinds of things would you be
16 looking for?
17 A What would generally happen at the start of
18 that meeting is a verification of the information that
19 was provided by the sales department, and that would
20 include verification of who the credit contacts will be
21 during this process, who the data processing contacts
22 will be during this process and what the volume of data
23 is during this process, what type of system is used to
24 maintain and generate the information and what type of
25 media will be used to transmit the information.
31
1:58P 1 Q During this consultation do you all ever have
2 any specific discussions about not reporting accounts
3 that are seven years past date of occurrence?
4 A That conversation should occur in the
5 discussion of the individual parameters of the format.
6 Q Okay. And what do you tell your subscribers
7 about that?
8 A What the subscriber would be told is in
9 discussion of the particular status and within the status
10 the discussion should occur as to, for instance, paid
11 accounts only need to be reported one time even though
12 they may be maintained on the master file for an
13 indefinite period and that older accounts that exist on
14 a master file should not be reported.
1:59P 15 Q Okay. What do you mean by old accounts? More
16 than seven years past date of occurrence?
17 A Right, or accounts that are paid.
18 Q In fact if you would turn back to page 3 on
19 Exhibit A, I want to read a little bit of paragraph 8.
20 It says "Limitation of Liability."
21 MR. FECHER: Object. The document speaks for
22 itself.
23 MR. DRESSLER: That's fine.
24 Q "Subscriber acknowledges that TRW maintains
25 a database, updated on a periodic basis, from which
32
1 Subscriber solicits information and that TRW does not
2 undertake a separate investigation for each inquiry or
3 request for services made by Subscriber."
4 Just taking that portion of this agreement,
5 would that be consistent with the information that you
6 give to folks like Unifund and other subscribers?
7 A I don't know what the core relation is between
8 that particular paragraph and what we would be telling a
9 subscriber.
2:00P 10 Q Well, do you tell the subscribers that you are
11 not going to necessarily scan through their millions and
12 millions of accounts to make sure they're not sending you
13 old seven-year-past-date-of-occurrence accounts?
14 A No, because we don't -- we do not scan through
15 in that sense of it. In other words, as the accounts are
16 read through, if a date of occurrence is found that is
17 beyond the obsolescence period, it will be dropped at
18 that point.
_________________
David Szwak
Chairman, Consumer Protection Section, Louisiana State Bar Association
Bodenheimer, Jones & Szwak, LLC
416 Travis Street, Suite 1404
Mid South Tower
Shreveport, Louisiana 71101
318-424-1400
Fax 318-221-6555 |
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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19 Q Well, I guess you make it known to folks like
20 Unifund and other subscribers that you will not tolerate
21 them reporting accounts that are more than seven years
22 past date of occurrence, correct?
23 A That's pretty correct, yeah.
24 MR. FECHER: I'm going to ask can you come back
25 to that question?
33
1 Can we mark that question? I'd appreciate it.
2:01P 2 BY MR. DRESSLER:
3 Q Do you tell folks like Unifund and other
4 subscribers that it is their responsibility to ensure
5 that the information they send you is correct?
6 A Yes, we do.
7 Q And you expect them to send you correct
8 information?
9 A That's true.
10 Q When you receive the media from subscribers
11 and it's put into your system, based on your experience
12 is there any realistic possibility that the date of
13 occurrence could somehow get changed while that
14 information is in Experian's hands?
15 A No way.
16 Q Would you please explain to the jury why there
17 is no way the date of occurrence would be changed while
18 in Experian's hands.
19 A The reason is because we do not manipulate
20 information coming into the file 1 database.
2:02P 21 Q Is any of the information you receive
22 manipulated as you say?
23 A No.
24 Q Is any of the information that you receive off
25 of the media tapes changed in any way?
34
1 A Yes, it is changed because the information
2 being submitted is submitted in a standard industrywide
3 format, and that format is not the ultimate file format
4 that the information is stored in, and so it has to be
5 changed.
6 Q Okay. Well, let me be more specific, and I
7 don't mean physically changed, but the content of that
8 information that you receive on the tapes, is that
9 content ever changed?
10 A No. We do not calculate things of that nature.
11 For instance, a date of occurrence has to be provided.
12 We do not go in and calculate a date of occurrence.
13 Q So the information you receive, it is what it
14 is?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And at best through this process that I'm
17 sure you have spent thousands of hours working on, you
18 associate the data with a consumer perhaps, right?
2:04P 19 A Yes.
20 Q But the data itself is never changed?
21 A That's true.
22 Q Which means that if we look at an Experian
23 credit report, the credit report has information from
24 many different subscribers; is that correct?
25 A That's true.
35
1 Q If we looked at someone else on Experian's
2 credit report, we could feel pretty safe the information
3 appearing on that report is the information you receive
4 from that particular subscriber?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Have you ever encountered a situation in your
7 28 years with Experian where Experian somehow published
8 a wrong date of occurrence due to -- I have to rethink
9 that. Sorry. That's two.
2:05P 10 Have you ever encountered an experience in
11 your 28 years where Experian published the wrong date of
12 occurrence due to its own fault?
13 A I'm not aware of that.
14 Q Never heard of it?
15 A Never heard of it.
16 Q Okay. What role, if any, does your department
17 play in the dispute, the whole dispute verification
18 process?
19 A The dispute process is totally handled by the
20 NCAC out of Allen, Texas.
21 Q Well, if I wrote in -- I've done it before --
22 and asked for my credit report, how physically does it
23 work through the system? Does anything -- let me put it
24 this way. Does anything ever show out here in California
25 that says print this out for Brett Dressler? Does it
36
1 send it to Allen or how does it work?
2:06P 2 A The inquiry goes into the mainframe through
3 NCAC in Allen, Texas, and the request is submitted for
4 print from there, and nothing comes back to our
5 operational facility here.
6 MR. DRESSLER: Let's go off the record for a
7 second.
8 (Discussion off the record.)
9 MR. DRESSLER: Mr. Fecher and I have agreed
10 that Experian credit reports, and we'll identify them
11 in a minute, are admissible under the Federal Rules of
12 Evidence 8036 as business records of Experian.
2:07P 13 MR. FECHER: Yes, but we reserve the right to
14 object to their inadmissibilty for other reasons but not
15 related to their authenticity, that they are maintained
16 in the normal course of this business and that this
17 witness is competent to testify as to them.
18 MR. DRESSLER: So we'll skip all that.
19 Q Now you're qualified to help me understand some
20 of the particulars on these credit reports I take it.
21 A I'll try.
22 Q Okay.
23 A I don't read them every day.
24 MR. DOAK: If we're going to get into a new
25 area, can we take a break?
37
1 MR. DRESSLER: Absolutely. If you want to take
2 a break, call it.
3 (Recess.)
2:21P 4 MR. DOAK: Before you resume, we'd like to
5 correct or expand on some prior testimony where the
6 witness is speaking in generalities. These are my words.
7 I know you're going back, and that's why I'm providing
8 you this information so that you can go back and ask
9 whatever questions you want.
10 He's speaking in generalities, but I know that
11 he's not being sufficiently precise for your purposes,
12 and so I've talked to him about those generalities. This
13 pertains to really the last ten minutes or so of your
14 questions and about is there ever any way an item of
15 information such as a date of occurrence that is
16 submitted by a contributor could ever be changed when
17 that item of information is received by Experian.
2:22P 18 MR. DRESSLER: Right.
19 MR. DOAK: It's not my intent to make a speech
20 but merely to set that whole series of questions which
21 I think have some refinements on precision that are
22 important for us to fully and fairly disclose the precise
23 explanation to you.
24 MR. DRESSLER: Okay.
25 Q Well, I'm not real sure how to go about it, but
38
1 let me ask you is there anything that you want to clarify
2 or tell me about that line of testimony?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Go ahead.
5 A Dates of occurrence are analyzed as part of the
6 overall record being submitted into the system; and if
7 the dates of occurrence are obsolete, the account will be
8 rejected.
9 Q Okay.
10 A If there are situations where the dates of
11 occurrence are very close or identical to the date open
12 and the account is not belonging to a collection agency
13 or bad debt buyer, we can optionally substitute a date
14 for the date of occurrence.
2:23P 15 Q Let's go back. I thought I knew what you were
16 going to say. I was a bad lawyer and wasn't listening to
17 that second part. If an account is reviewed and, for
18 instance, the date of occurrence is equal to the date
19 opened --
20 A Right, or very close to, we have the option
21 of looking at the industry and making sure it's not a
22 collection agency or a bad debt buyer; and if we know
23 that the date opened provided by that creditor -- and
24 this would be the original creditor -- is known to be
25 valid, we can optionally substitute that date for the
39
1 date of occurrence. That will cause the account to purge
2 much earlier than it would if we had the factual date of
3 occurrence, but it will allow the record to proceed to
4 file.
2:24P 5 Q I'm trying to understand that.
6 MR. DOAK: It's necessary for me to make sure
7 that -- I want you to have full opportunity. I mean this
8 is not helpful, but, you know, hurtful to my client, but
9 let me make it more abstract. There are situations where
10 data fields can be changed.
11 MR. DRESSLER: Okay.
12 MR. DOAK: It's unusual, and there are all
13 kinds of abberational circumstances that I certainly
14 can't tell you about and this witness won't be able
15 to tell you all about, but there are very intense
16 complexities in the way this system takes in data, and
17 I don't want the witness to generalize and, you know,
18 make categorical statements as we originally said, you
19 know, that there can never ever be any changes.
2:25P 20 MR. DRESSLER: Well, let me see if I've got
21 this right.
22 Q Mr. Young, if the date of occurrence equals the
23 date opened, you have the option of doing what? Fill in
24 that blank again for me.
25 A We have the option of then substituting the
40
1 date opened as the -- I'm sorry. Let me make it easier
2 for you.
3 Q Okay.
4 A If the date of occurrence is close to the date
5 of activity as opposed to the date opened --
6 Q Okay.
7 A -- now you've got a June activity being
8 submitted, and the date of occurrence is June or May.
9 It looks suspicious, and at that point we can optionally
10 insert the date open, and, let's say, the date open
11 because it is the original creditor is three years ago.
2:26P 12 Q Okay. Would you ever do -- does it have to be
13 the original creditor?
14 A Yes. You can't do it for a collection agency
15 or bad debt buyer because the date opened that they give
16 you is the date that they acquired it --
17 Q Right.
18 A -- which is going to be very close to recent
19 activity.
20 Q What I hear you saying is that that potential
21 change in the date would not occur with a company like
22 Unifund.
23 A Correct.
24 Q Okay. Fair enough.
25 Mr. Doak, was there anything else you wanted me
41
1 to --
2 MR. DOAK: No, but I think the witness has
3 simply given you an example --
4 MR. DRESSLER: Right.
5 MR. DOAK: -- not an exhaustive list of how
6 things can be changed.
7 MR. DRESSLER: Okay. Well, all right. Then
8 I'll -- let's go back over it then.
9 Q After you've had an opportunity to reflect on
10 this in a situation with Unifund, a bad debt buyer, is
11 there any possibility in that particular scenario where
12 you all would change the date of occurrence either on
13 purpose or by mistake?
2:28P 14 A No, we would not.
15 Q Okay. Let me show you Young Exhibit 2.
16 MR. DOAK: We need to take a break.
17 MR. DRESSLER: Okay.
18 (Recess.)
2:36P 19 MR. DOAK: One problem may be we may be getting
20 into a level of detail that gets you a little bit beyond
21 Mr. Young's direct expertise, but I have refreshed him of
22 a couple of facts or a couple of concerns that I had. So
23 let's let him try to state that again.
24 MR. DRESSLER: Okay.
25 MR. DOAK: You may pursue it if he's able to
42
1 answer those questions.
2 BY MR. DRESSLER:
3 Q Before I ask that, I want to ask you just a
4 couple other quick questions.
5 A Okay.
6 Q Right after I asked that last question, you
7 took a break with your attorney, right?
8 A Right.
9 Q I don't know what you said, but you and your
10 attorney talked, correct?
11 A Yes.
12 Q About how long was that conversation?
13 A Three minutes.
14 Q All right. Do you care to change the answer to
15 the question I asked right before the break?
2:37P 16 A Would you repeat the question you asked before
17 the break so I -- or do you want me to generalize?
18 Q No. Apparently we're getting into trouble with
19 generalities. We don't want that.
20 A It would help if you would repeat it.
21 MR. DRESSLER: I would love if our court
22 reporter would please repeat that question.
23 (Record read.)
24 BY MR. DRESSLER:
25 Q Is there something you want to change about
43
1 that answer?
2 A Based on my memory being refreshed, yes, it is
3 possible that we would change a date of occurrence being
4 reported if we thought that it was incorrect and would
5 have a negative impact, but we would only change it to
6 favor the consumer.
2:39P 7 Q Okay. You're going to have to let me work
8 through this one now. You would change the date of
9 occurrence if it -- in the case of a bad debt buyer where
10 a company like Unifund is supplying you information.
11 Under what circumstances might you change the date of
12 occurrence?
13 A I'm not that familiar with the details relating
14 to a specific account.
15 Q Okay.
16 A Okay, but within the software the date is
17 analyzed, and it could be replaced, but I don't know the
18 exact details.
19 Q Well, how could it be replaced?
2:40P 20 A I don't know that answer.
21 Q Why don't you know that answer?
22 A I'm not that familiar with the intricate
23 details of the software that we're using.
24 Q Okay. So what you're telling me is that there
25 are circumstances under which the date of occurrence
44
1 supplied to you by a bad debt buyer could be replaced.
2 A Yes.
3 Q Now you had your deposition taken yesterday,
4 correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And who took your deposition? Do you know?
7 A No. I don't know.
8 Q Okay. In that case Experian has been sued?
9 A I believe so.
10 Q These folks over here, Unifund has been sued?
11 A I believe so.
12 Q You all are codefendants in that case?
13 A I believe so.
14 Q Have you had discussions with employees at
15 Unifund about that case?
16 A I have not.
17 Q So you don't know any particular circumstances
18 under which the date of occurrence might be replaced when
19 that information is supplied by bad debt buyers?
2:41P 20 A I don't have a specific instance that I can
21 share with you, no.
22 Q Well, then I need to know why you're making
23 that statement. Why are you telling me now that that
24 information could be replaced? How do you know that to
25 be the case?
45
1 A I don't have the specific detail to it. I know
2 that it can happen within the software, but I can't give
3 you a specific instance.
4 Q Well, I'm not asking for a specific instance
5 necessarily, but has one of your employees shared that
6 information with you?
7 A No, they have not.
8 Q Okay. To your knowledge has it ever happened
9 before?
10 A It apparently can happen.
11 Q Well, let's hold on a second. To your
12 knowledge has it ever actually happened before?
2:42P 13 A I don't know of a specific instance, no.
14 Q Do you have -- well, let's talk about the
15 software then. Where does the software come from?
16 A The software is generated by our own
17 organization.
18 Q Do you all write it?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Do you have any oversight to the writing of the
21 software?
22 A Do I in particular?
23 Q Yes.
24 A No, I don't.
25 Q What department does that?
46
1 A Software development writes it.
2 Q Has anyone in software development explained to
3 you circumstances under which the date of occurrence at
4 Experian might change the date of occurrence that was
5 supplied by a bad debt buyer?
6 A They have not explained it to me.
7 Q At all?
2:43P 8 A No.
9 Q So why do you think that?
10 A I don't think it can happen for a bad debt
11 buyer. I think it can happen within the system.
12 Q Okay. Why don't you think it can happen for a
13 bad debt buyer?
14 A I don't think it can happen to a bad debt buyer
15 because there are limited accounts being reported, and
16 there are limited situations being reported.
17 Q And how does that situation differ from an
18 original creditor where the date of occurrence might be
19 changed?
20 A An original creditor reports an account from
21 inception through aging to a final status. A collection
22 agency or bad debt buyer only reports an account as a
23 derogatory status requiring a date of occurrence all the
24 time.
2:44P 25 Q All right. I am going to re-mark this Young B.
47
1 Let me show you Young B which, I think, we have agreed is
2 one of you all's business records, Experian's business
3 records.
4 (Young Exhibit B was marked for
5 identification by the court reporter.)
6 BY MR. DRESSLER:
7 Q Does that appear to be a credit report for
8 Carlos Velez?
9 A It appears to be a consumer disclosure.
10 Q Would that differ from a credit report?
2:45P 11 A It would differ in the presentation. A
12 consumer disclosure is offered in user-friendly English
13 if you will.
14 Q A consumer disclosure then would go to the
15 consumer, right?
16 A True.
17 Q What I'm calling a credit report would go to,
18 for example, a company that was inquiring about a
19 consumer?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Based on your knowledge of the database, would
22 it be fair to say that the information appearing in the
23 consumer disclosure would also appear in the credit
24 report although not in the same format --
25 A That's true.
48
1 Q -- for that same period of time?
2:46P 2 A Yes.
3 Q Let me ask you a couple of questions about this
4 credit report. Turn to page 3. On page 3 I'll draw
5 your attention to, I guess, the top line, and I want
6 to go through each of them and see if you can help me
7 understand what some of them are. The Unifund -- well,
8 not Unifund, I'm sorry, but just this top line says "Date
9 Opened Reported Since." What does that mean to start
10 with, date opened?
11 A The date opened in this case is -- reflects to
12 Unifund -- it would be the date that they acquired the
13 account.
14 Q In your interpretation from that consumer
15 disclosure form, what date would that be?
16 A 12-1990 opened.
17 Q Okay. And does that mean as far as that report
18 goes that Unifund acquired the debt in 12 of '90?
2:47P 19 A Yes.
20 Q What does 5-1999 mean?
21 MR. DOAK: I don't know if that's --
22 MR. DRESSLER: Let me go back.
23 MR. DOAK: It's just an error, and I thought
24 Pat knew. I can represent the 12-90 is the original date
25 that the account was opened.
49
1 BY MR. DRESSLER:
2 Q Let's make this clear, Mr. Young.
3 MR. DOAK: I think we should --
4 THE WITNESS: What do you mean originally
5 opened?
6 MR. FECHER: With the original creditor.
7 MR. DOAK: With the original creditor.
8 MR. DRESSLER: Yeah. I mean if he doesn't know
9 this, then I need to know that, and I'm not going to
10 waste his time.
11 MR. DOAK: All of these employees can generally
12 read these file disclosures, but I think that we would be
13 better off to have you have the person from the consumer
14 relations department in Allen go through these in detail
15 so that we're being sure that we're giving you the
16 accurate information about what these fields are as
17 reflected --
18 MR. DRESSLER: Okay.
19 MR. DOAK: -- on here, and I may be wrong.
20 My witness is looking at me. I may well be -- I'm
21 sufficiently concerned about these things; and if we're
22 going to do it again anyway with the consumer relations
23 person, I don't know why we would bother to go through it
24 here with a witness who really isn't presented for this
25 area.
50
2:49P 1 MR. DRESSLER: Well, okay. Do you mind if I
2 ask him some questions about how familiar he is with
3 these reports?
4 MR. DOAK: No.
5 BY MR. DRESSLER:
6 Q How familiar are you with this format of
7 reporting?
8 A I don't use them every day. I see them seldom.
9 Q Seldom?
10 A Yeah.
11 Q Okay. Do you feel comfortable trying to help
12 me understand insofar as the database is concerned where
13 some of this information comes from?
14 A Yes.
15 Q All right. Let's stick to that. One thing I
16 am concerned about is the account history for Unifund
17 here on the end. It says account history collection as
18 of 5-99, 4-99, 12-98 and so forth. Do you see that?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Based on your knowledge of the way the credit
21 business works, does that make any sense that an account
22 has been referred to collection six times?
2:50P 23 A I'm not familiar with where these dates are
24 taken from on the report quite frankly.
25 Q Well, I mean you don't -- well, okay. You
51
1 don't know where this information comes from within your
2 database?
3 A No.
4 Q Do you all have some area in the database to
5 store information regarding collections?
6 A Yes, we do.
7 Q Okay. Have you seen many accounts that are
8 referred to collections six times?
9 A No, but I don't think that's what that means.
10 Q What do you think it means?
11 A I would strictly be making an assumption, but
12 I think this is how many times it was reported by the
13 particular subscriber. It's not how many times it was
14 referred to collections.
15 Q Okay. I think the answer is no. So before I
16 get there, do you have any experience with Bekin scores
17 and that kind of thing?
2:51P 18 A It's very limited.
19 Q I should ask someone else. Based on your
20 investigation of the facts of this case, whatever
21 investigation it may have been, do you have any reason to
22 believe that Experian changed the date of occurrence with
23 regard to the Unifund account?
24 A No, I do not.
25 MR. DRESSLER: I'll mark this as Young C.
52
1 (Young Exhibit C was marked for
2 identification by the court reporter.)
3 MR. DRESSLER: I'm not sure Bill has had an
4 opportunity to see that.
2:52P 5 MR. FECHER: All right.
6 BY MR. DRESSLER:
7 Q Let me show you what has been marked as Young
8 C.
9 MR. FECHER: Can you read the date off that on
10 the top line?
11 MR. DRESSLER: I sure can. I believe it's
12 February 3rd, 2000. We're looking at what appears to be
13 a consumer dispute verification for Carlos Velez.
14 Q Would that be true?
15 A This is the first time that I've seen that
16 form, so I presume it is. It says it's a verification.
17 MR. FECHER: So the record is clear,
18 Mr. Dressler, based upon the testimony yesterday, we used
19 the term "CDV" as a term of art within the industry.
20 That's the result of a CDV form that you have presented
21 the witness with.
22 MR. DRESSLER: I think you're right. That's
23 what he told me earlier.
24 Q Okay. Have you ever seen that CDV marked as
25 Young C?
53
1 A No, I have not.
2 Q Okay.
2:53P 3 (Young Exhibit D was marked for
4 identification by the court reporter.)
5 MR. DRESSLER: I don't know if you've seen
6 that. Okay.
7 Q I have now handed you what's been marked as
8 Young D. Do you have any idea what that is?
9 A No. I'm not familiar with it.
10 Q All right. I take it you've never seen it
11 before?
12 A I don't believe I have, no.
13 Q Any idea how to read it?
14 A Looks like account information relevant to
15 Carlos Velez.
16 Q Is that a string of numbers in the top
17 right-hand column? Does that appear to be in any sort of
18 standard format, reporting format that is?
19 MR. FECHER: So the record is clear, could you
20 read off -- there are a lot of columns and a lot of
21 numbers. He can read off numbers, but you're referring
22 to --
2:54P 23 MR. DRESSLER: I'm talking about the string of
24 numbers starting in the top right-hand column that starts
25 with 412149011019.
54
1 Q Do you know if that string of numbers is in
2 some sort of standard reporting format?
3 A No, I do not know that.
4 MR. DOAK: Are there going to be further
5 questions about Exhibit D?
6 MR. DRESSLER: No. He doesn't know anything
7 about it.
8 MR. DOAK: I was going to ask you. I don't
9 know what the document is.
10 MR. DRESSLER: I don't know what it is either.
11 Well, Bill told me. I'm trying to find out if he knows
12 what it is. Okay.
13 Q Is Experian currently reporting information
14 supplied by Unifund on its credit reports or consumer
15 disclosures?
2:55P 16 A It's reported, but it is suppressed.
17 MR. FECHER: For Unifund?
18 MR. DRESSLER: Yes, for information from
19 Unifund.
20 Q What does that mean, it's reported but
21 suppressed?
22 A If a credit report is accessed containing an
23 Unifund trade line, that trade line will not go out
24 included in the report.
25 Q Okay. So basically you all are receiving,
55
1 maintaining the information but not publishing it?
2 A That's correct.
3 Q What is the status of the investigation into
4 Unifund? What is the status of your investigation?
5 A It's pending, the verification and assurances
6 that the information as provided by the program is
7 correct and valid.
2:56P 8 Q When did you all stop or when did you all start
9 suppressing their information?
10 A Yesterday afternoon.
11 Q Why was that decision -- well, when did the
12 investigation start?
13 A We thought we had done it on April 27th, and we
14 found out yesterday afternoon that a different subscriber
15 code number had been suppressed, and we got the correct
16 subscriber code number suppressed yesterday afternoon.
17 Q Let's go back a little bit. When did the
18 investigation begin?
19 A The investigation probably began in late
20 February.
21 Q Of 2001?
22 A Yes.
23 Q When was the decision made to suppress the
24 information?
25 A I believe it was April 27th.
56
1 Q Well, I thought you just said that you had
2 apparently made the decision but were using the wrong
3 subscriber code. Did I understand that correctly?
2:57P 4 A The one account was discovered at the end of
5 February that caused us to start investigating further.
6 Q Okay. And what did you discover about that
7 particular account?
8 A That there was a date opened equal to the date
9 of occurrence.
10 Q Would it ever be possible for a debt buyer like
11 Unifund to actually have a date of occurrence equal to
12 the date opened?
13 A It could happen, yes.
14 MR. FECHER: I'm going to object to the
15 characterization of Unifund as a debt buyer.
16 MR. DRESSLER: How do you want to characterize
17 it?
18 MR. FECHER: We are a debt buyer and collect
19 bad checks.
2:59P 20 BY MR. DRESSLER:
21 Q Would it be possible for a debt buyer and bad
22 check collector to have a date of occurrence equal to a
23 date open?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Given that their buying debt, which means that
57
1 the account already had to have been opened with some
2 other creditor for a certain period of time, how could
3 that be possible?
4 A It could happen if it was a check. It could
5 happen if it was a medical account. Medical accounts
6 don't get aged. Checks don't get aged.
7 Q Let me think about that for a second. Okay.
8 Well, if they're collecting a bad check, they're kind of
9 like the original creditor then unless they bought the
10 right to the bad check from somebody else. That's
11 worthless. Don't even answer that. We're not going
12 anywhere with it, so I won't waste your time with that.
3:00P 13 I may have already asked you this. Was there
14 any paperwork at all generated during the course of that
15 investigation?
16 A I don't have copies of the paperwork. It
17 probably would be in just file-generated information.
18 Q Have you seen copies of paperwork?
19 A No, I haven't.
20 Q Okay. Have you ever heard the term of art
21 called "a recipe"?
22 A No, I have not.
23 MR. DRESSLER: Is that funny?
3:01P 24 Q Have you ever heard of a term called -- a term
25 of art in this industry called "a recipe"?
58
1 A No, I haven't.
2 Q All right. Okay. Mr. Young, I do appreciate
3 your time. I'm going to let Mr. Fecher here take it away
4 or do you want to take a break?
5 (Discussion off the record.)
3:03P 6 EXAMINATION
7 BY MR. FECHER:
8 Q We'll get back to this in more detail to follow
9 up what you said off the record. The date opened record
10 by a bad debt buyer is the date the bad debt buyer
11 acquired it or should be the date the bad debt buyer
12 acquired it?
13 A Should be.
14 Q And do you know if Unifund was reporting to
15 Experian the date opened as the date it acquired the
16 account or the date the account was or not opened with
17 the original creditor?
18 A It should have been reporting the date they
19 acquired it.
20 Q But do you know if they were in fact reporting
21 the date it was opened with the original creditor?
22 A No, I don't.
23 MR. FECHER: Let's take a break, and then I'll
24 go back with some more questions.
3:04P 25 (Recess.)
59
3:13P 1 BY MR. FECHER:
2 Q Mr. Young, my name is Bill Fecher, and I'm the
3 attorney for Unifund. I'm going to ask you questions
4 today, and I also appreciate your time that you've agreed
5 to spend with us.
6 The Fair Credit Reporting Act was amended and
7 effective October 1st, 1997, correct?
8 A Correct.
9 Q The Fair Credit Reporting Act always required
10 a date of occurrence to be a reported field, correct?
11 A Correct.
12 Q But the amendment made it clear or made a
13 uniform method in which the date of occurrence could be
14 determined, correct?
15 A True.
16 Q In fact prior to the effective date of the
17 amendment on certain accounts or for certain subscribers
18 Experian was calculating the date of occurrence based
19 upon reporting of ongoing accounts.
3:14P 20 A Only for ongoing accounts.
21 Q Correct, and not for secondary markets or bad
22 debt buyers, correct?
23 A And we were not actually calculating it. What
24 we were doing was establishing it --
25 Q Right.
60
1 A -- based on the date of --
2 Q 30 days delinquent, 60 days delinquent, 90 days
3 delinquent as the subscriber reported it to you.
4 A Right. So as the account hit 30 days, the date
5 was locked.
6 Q Okay. And Unifund became a subscriber with TRW
7 prior to the date of that amendment, correct? Take a
8 look at Exhibit A that says 1995.
9 A Yes.
10 Q And when the Fair Credit Reporting Act was
11 amended, you were involved for Experian with respect to
12 database compliance --
3:15P 13 A Yes.
14 Q -- and notification to customers subscribers of
15 what issues were created as a result of the amendment to
16 the Fair Credit Reporting Act, correct?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Before today had you heard -- before yesterday
19 had you heard of Unifund as a corporate entity?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Was it solely in relation to the investigation
22 that you testified to earlier?
23 A No. I've heard of Unifund on other occasions.
24 Q And you're aware that Unifund is a bad debt
25 buyer --
61
1 A Yes.
2 Q -- a term of art within the industry, correct?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And it also collects bad checks.
5 A I was not aware that they collect bad checks.
6 Q Okay. What you said earlier is that the
7 investigation you did, you matched up a date of
8 occurrence as reported by Unifund with a date opened as
9 reported by Unifund; and if those were the same, you were
10 suspicious.
3:16P 11 A Yes.
12 Q Did anybody do an analysis as to whether or not
13 those results were determined to be bad check cases?
14 A I don't know if that was found out or not. I
15 have not seen the results of that, Bill.
16 Q But a bad check will have the same date of
17 occurrence as date opened, correct?
18 A It will be right there close, yes --
19 Q Okay.
20 A -- like a three-day tolerance.
21 Q All right. Do you know in which format Unifund
22 is reporting?
23 A I believe it's in the Metro format.
24 Q And we have Metro I or Metro which has actually
25 two different types of Metro format, correct?
62
1 A Well, Metro format has a packed and unpacked
2 format which will vary the length, but the fields are the
3 same.
4 Q We have 232 base --
5 A Yes.
6 Q -- which is the packed format --
7 A Yes.
8 Q -- and the 272 base which is the character
9 format.
10 A Unpacked, correct.
3:17P 11 Q And in reality the 272 base character format
12 goes out to 304 characters?
13 A If there are appendages with it, yes.
14 Q And the appendages could be the original
15 creditor?
16 A I believe so.
17 Q Okay.
18 A That would be the F1 segment.
19 Q And currently subscribers can report to
20 Experian in either Metro or Metro II, correct?
21 A Yes.
22 Q There's nothing improper about doing it?
23 A No.
24 Q Does Metro -- I'm going to refer to it as
25 Metro I so that I avoid saying Metro II. Metro I, does
63
1 it have a field for date of first delinquency?
2 A It has a field for date of occurrence which
3 should be the date of first delinquency.
4 Q But Metro II has a field for date of first
5 delinquency?
6 A I believe it has the words "date of first
7 delinquency" defined right in there, yes.
3:18P 8 Q Okay.
9 A I believe it calls it "date of occurrence, date
10 of first delinquency."
11 Q Now prior to the February, the current
12 investigation that you testified to earlier, has Unifund
13 been investigated by Experian?
14 A I'm not aware of that.
15 Q Had any audits been conducted of Unifund
16 reporting to Experian?
17 A I don't know that.
18 Q All right. Experian has a lot of subscribers,
19 correct?
20 A True.
21 Q Ballpark it for me.
22 A Approximately 8,400.
_________________
David Szwak
Chairman, Consumer Protection Section, Louisiana State Bar Association
Bodenheimer, Jones & Szwak, LLC
416 Travis Street, Suite 1404
Mid South Tower
Shreveport, Louisiana 71101
318-424-1400
Fax 318-221-6555 |
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23 Q Some of those are good reporters?
24 A May I correct that?
25 Q Yes, you may.
64
1 A We have approximately 8,400 contributors. We
2 have substantially more subscribers.
3 Q Right, and a contributor is somebody who
4 supplies information.
5 A Yes.
6 Q And a subscriber is somebody who uses that
7 information.
3:19P 8 A And may be a contributor.
9 Q And may be a contributor.
10 A Yes.
11 Q You've got some good, we'll call them
12 contributors, because that's what we're talking about
13 today is a contribution of information.
14 A Okay.
15 Q You have some good contributors and people that
16 contribute regularly and that you've never had problems
17 with.
18 A Yes.
19 Q And you've got some bad contributors that you
20 do have problems with.
21 A Okay.
22 Q Performance Capital Management --
23 A They are a contributor, yes.
24 Q -- good contributor or bad contributor?
25 A They are suppressed at this time.
65
1 Q And why are they suppressed?
2 A They are suppressed because their data has bad
3 dates of occurrence.
4 Q And how long have they been suppressed? More
5 than a year?
6 A Pretty close to a year.
7 Q Okay. Now if a complaint is received by
8 Experian about a contributor, is that complaint forwarded
9 by Experian to the contributor?
3:20P 10 A It would depend on where that complaint
11 arrived. It's not uncommon for a consumer to complain
12 about a contributor.
13 Q I'm going to distinguish -- I'm not talking
14 about the CDVs.
15 A Okay.
16 Q Those CDVs, they are supposed to go to the
17 contributor to verify the information --
18 A Correct.
19 Q -- generally, correct? I'm saying that if
20 Experian determines that a contributor is routinely
21 providing bad information or unreliable information or
22 suspect information, is notification then given to
23 that contributor that there is a problem with your
24 data?
25 A It should be, yes.
66
1 Q Okay. Are you aware of any notifications to
2 Unifund regarding problems with their data prior to
3 January 1st, 2001?
4 A I believe there was a verbal communication, but
5 I'm not aware of any written communication.
3:21P 6 Q Do you recall when that verbal communication
7 was provided?
8 A No. I don't have the exact date. I believe --
9 and I don't even know the name of the person it was
10 with -- but I believe it was in the last two months.
11 Q The last two months of today?
12 A From today backward.
13 Q I'm saying prior to January 1st, 2001.
14 A No. No.
15 Q You're not aware of any complaints to Unifund
16 about the problems with their data?
17 A I'm not.
18 Q In fact up until April, what you thought was
19 April, and we found out today is yesterday, you had been
20 reporting Unifund data.
21 A Correct.
22 Q And we have heard discussion that's subsequent
23 to the litigation that Mr. Dressler referred to that's
24 currently pending against Unifund, Experian and one other
25 defendant, correct?
67
3:23P 1 A I'm not sure I understood your question.
2 Q There is another lawsuit that we talked about
3 earlier today --
4 A Yes.
5 Q -- that you were deposed on yesterday.
6 A Yes.
7 Q And that was filed in the year 2000.
8 A Okay.
9 Q And even subsequent to the filing of that
10 lawsuit, Experian continued to report and not suppress
11 Unifund data.
12 A As I know it today, that's true. We thought it
13 was suppressed.
14 Q You thought it was suppressed prior to
15 January 1st, 2001?
16 A No. No. No.
17 Q I'm now talking to January 1st. I picked that
18 date somewhat arbitrarily. It's before your
19 investigation, and you testified to that earlier and
20 after the filing of the lawsuit. That's why I picked
21 January 1st, 2001. Okay. Now Experian keeps records of
22 its communications with its subscribers; is that correct?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Is that in your area or is that in another
25 area?
68
1 A There would be tracking of communications in
2 the data operations area, which is my area, and there
3 would be separate communications tracked in the sales
4 area as well.
3:24P 5 Q Okay. But in the data area, that's when we're
6 talking about how we're processing your data, what format
7 you're giving it to us in and what problems we're having
8 with your data, correct?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And those communications -- is that referred to
11 by a name of some sort, the collection of documents or
12 records, communications log?
13 A Should be in the com log.
14 Q And the com log includes records of telephone
15 conversations?
16 A It should, yes.
17 Q And it should contain records of e-mail
18 communications?
19 A No. It will not contain e-mail communications.
20 Those would be contained in the Outlook system which is
21 e-mail.
22 Q But those are also maintained --
23 A Yes.
24 Q -- records of those e-mails?
25 A Yes.
69
1 Q And how about written correspondence?
2 A Written correspondence could be maintained in a
3 written folder.
3:25P 4 Q You think there is one written folder in the
5 database management area that contains Unifund's or any
6 correspondence with Unifund?
7 A There should be one, yes.
8 MR. FECHER: Okay. And, Mr. Doak, if I issued
9 a subpena to the custodian of records for Experian,
10 Experian will supply that information if not otherwise
11 privileged or protected?
12 MR. DOAK: I will look at any request you make.
13 MR. FECHER: I'm not making the request right
14 now. I just want to -- the custodian of records is the
15 person I should make that request to is my question or
16 should I direct it to Mr. Young?
17 MR. DOAK: Fine. Direct it to me.
18 MR. FECHER: Experian attorney, okay.
19 Q Now you have gotten tape from contributors
20 which you have rejected, correct?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And when you reject a tape from a contributor,
23 do you tell them why you reject it?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Is there written correspondence on that issue?
70
3:26P 1 A It could be written correspondence or it could
2 be telephone correspondence. It could be e-mail
3 correspondence.
4 Q Okay. And do you know if prior to January 1st,
5 2001 Experian rejected a tape from Unifund?
6 A I do not know that.
7 Q But that such rejection would appear in the com
8 log or the document file that we talked about a few
9 moments ago?
10 A Yes, it should.
11 Q I may have asked the question. No. Strike
12 that.
13 You've been with TRW/Experian for 28 years?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Who -- what other companies -- who is
16 Experian's competition?
17 A In the consumer credit field there would be
18 Trans Union and there would be Equifax.
19 Q Okay. And are you familiar with their
20 processes? You may not know them specifically, but in
21 general are you familiar with them?
3:27P 22 A Vaguely.
23 Q They do the same things you do. They have
24 subscribers?
25 A Yes.
71
1 Q They have contributors?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And they get requests for credit reports from
4 potential creditors of individuals?
5 A Yes.
6 Q They get requests from individuals saying I
7 want to see my consumer credit report?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And they rely upon information provided to them
10 by contributors?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And they may put it in a different format and
13 they may have different processes and procedures, you
14 know, and I think you called it DASD, or Direct Data
15 Access, and they may have a difference, but the process
16 is generally the same, correct?
17 A Yes.
18 Q If you could put Young D in front of you again,
19 sir --
20 A Uh-huh.
21 Q -- and you testified that you have not seen
22 this before, and you can't tell us what it is.
3:28P 23 A That's true.
24 Q Does this appear to be a txt file of a Metro I
25 reporting format?
72
1 A It could be, but I couldn't tell you that it
2 follows the Metro format without comparing it item per
3 item or line per line.
4 Q Well, assume for me, if you could, that this is
5 a Metro I reporting format.
6 A Okay.
7 Q What do we call the spaces like the first zero?
8 Is that a character?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And certain groups of characters are called
11 fields, correct?
12 A Fields or parameters or elements.
13 Q Right. And every field has a length and a
14 position?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And what does the length indicate?
17 A The length would indicate the room or the
18 number of positions that have been allocated to that
19 particular element.
3:29P 20 Q And what does the position indicate?
21 A The position within the format.
22 Q Position, within the field or within the
23 overall credit line?
24 A I'm not sure I follow your question.
25 Q Okay.
73
1 A I mean some fields are 2 bytes, some are 4,
2 some are 30.
3 Q But let's take, for example, the date of
4 occurrence. In Metro I the date of occurrence has a
5 length of six.
6 A Okay.
7 Q And it's in positions 54 through 59.
8 A Okay.
9 Q You can then take a Metro I reporting format
10 and count out two positions 54 through 59 and tell what
11 has been reported as the date of occurrence; is that
12 correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Okay. I will represent to you that the date of
15 occurrence is field number 12, positions 54 through 59.
3:30P 16 A Okay.
17 Q And I'll also represent to you that field 11 is
18 the date opened which is in field 48 through 53. Now it
19 gets complicated. Take a look at B, Young B.
20 A I do not have that.
21 Q That's bad because the court reporter gets mad.
22 That is another copy of Young B.
23 MR. DRESSLER: I do have it. There you go.
24 MR. FECHER: All right.
25 Q And we testified earlier or there was testimony
74
1 earlier that the date opened of 12-1990 is reported on
2 the trade line of Unifund Corp., correct?
3:31P 3 A That's the date opened was 12-1990.
4 Q Right.
5 A Yes.
6 Q Now can you tell us which fields your database
7 program looks at in a Metro I format to set forth in a
8 credit report the date opened?
9 A It should look at the date opened field from
10 here, and I don't remember what numbers.
11 Q 48 through 53.
12 A Okay. 48 through 53 if that's the date opened
13 on Metro I, then that should be where the 12-1990 was
14 derived from.
15 Q Right. If you take a look on Young D, see
16 there is a -- the first four numbers are 0304?
17 A Yes, for that line.
3:32P 18 Q For that line.
19 A Okay.
20 Q And for some reason my -- what I'm referring to
21 does not tell us what that is. The next numbers --
22 actually it's UNI.
23 A Yes.
24 Q And then it looks like 0100.
25 A Yes.
75
1 Q What would the UNI stand for? Do you know what
2 would be in those fields in the Metro I format?
3 A It's probably an identification setup to
4 establish -- you can put a subcode in that field or you
5 can put some identifier that can be equated to a
6 subscriber code number when we read the record in.
7 Q Okay. And do you know what comes after the
8 subscriber code or subscriber identifier in Metro I?
9 A I don't have it memorized. I'm sorry.
10 Q Would it possibly be the date of the report,
11 the month that it's coming in to you?
3:33P 12 A I don't think so.
13 Q Okay. The next -- if you could for me, how
14 many positions -- if we start with 03, how many positions
15 are we if we get to 0304? We're at four positions,
16 correct?
17 A Right.
18 Q With UNI we're now at position seven?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And 0100 we're now at what position?
21 A The last zero would be in 11.
22 Q Okay. And then we've got a number that's a
23 series of numbers 982540412857165. How many positions is
24 that? What positions are those?
25 A 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 -- 2, 3,
76
1 4, 5, 6 -- so 12 through 26.
2 Q And then there appears to be two spaces with no
3 digits in them, correct --
3:35P 4 A Correct.
5 Q -- for 27 and 28, correct?
6 A Correct.
7 Q And would that be the customer account number
8 reported in field number 3 with a length of 17 positions,
9 12 through 28, in Metro I format?
10 A Could be.
11 Q Okay. Account type is the next field, and that
12 has a length of two positions, 29 through 30.
13 A Correct.
14 Q And that appears to be 15.
15 A Correct.
16 Q Now account type is an indication to Experian
17 as to what type of account is being reported, and these
18 are codes that Experian has developed for reporting in
19 the Metro format, correct?
20 A Correct.
21 Q And then we have two more digits which are
22 93 --
23 A Right.
24 Q -- which is the account status, correct?
25 A Yes.
77
1 Q I'll represent to you that that is field five,
2 positions 31 through 32. Now bad debt buyers are limited
3 as to what fields or what accounts status they can
4 provide, correct?
3:36P 5 A That's correct.
6 Q 93, correct?
7 A 93 and 62.
8 Q 04?
9 A Yes, 04.
10 Q What is 04?
11 A 04 is the capability to delete an account.
12 Q Okay. And then there is another space which is
13 field six, space of one, for update indicator, right?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Then we have field seven, which is reserved,
16 but it has a length of nine. So are there nine zeros
17 here, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9.
18 A There are.
19 Q And then we have field eight, which is term
20 frequency, and it is a length of one. What does term
21 frequency refer to?
22 A I believe term frequency relates to whether or
23 not it's monthly, bimonthly.
3:37P 24 Q And this would be for current ongoing accounts
25 for the most part?
78
1 A That's true.
2 Q Mortgage accounts?
3 A Mortgages.
4 Q Installment loans?
5 A Yes, unusual types of accounts.
6 Q All right. And since Unifund we have talked
7 about includes within its business the buying of bad
8 debt, it doesn't have any ongoing accounts.
9 A True.
10 Q All right.
11 A That's correct.
12 Q So there is not going to be anything in field
13 eight, correct?
14 A True.
15 Q The next field is field nine, which is terms,
16 and there is -- that has three positions in it.
17 A Yes.
18 Q Do you know what terms are in Metro I format?
19 A Terms are the duration.
20 Q Duration of the credit extended?
21 A True.
22 Q And since Unifund includes within its business
23 the bad debt, it is not going to have term, and so it's
24 not going to report anything there, correct?
25 A Yes.
79
1 Q That is a length of three, a position of 44
2 through 46.
3:38P 3 A Okay.
4 Q All right. Now field ten is the transaction
5 type. That's 4.
6 A 4.
7 Q And that's position 47, correct?
8 A Correct.
9 Q Do you know what transaction type 4 is?
10 A Transaction type 4 would indicate that it is an
11 update to an on-file record.
12 Q What does that tell your database system?
13 A In today's environment it tells us nothing. We
14 don't read that field.
15 Q What did it tell you at this point in time?
16 A What does it tell me today?
17 Q No. I mean when Metro I was developed and
18 somebody decided we needed to have field ten, a
19 transaction type --
20 A Yes.
21 Q -- what did it tell you then?
22 A What it told us at that time, which was prior
23 to June 1996, was that the record was updating an on-file
24 record and did not include an address change.
3:39P 25 Q Okay.
80
1 A Basically the information is being updated.
2 Q Now we have date of occurrence which is a
3 length of six.
4 A Correct.
5 Q We have field 11, which is date opened, a
6 length of six, fields 48 through 53. What are the next
7 six digits?
8 A 12, 14, 90.
9 Q And we have already established that Young B
10 says that the date this account was opened was December
11 of 1990, correct?
12 A That's correct.
13 Q And that appears to be consistent with Young B,
14 assuming Young B to be a Metro I reporting format,
15 correct?
16 A Correct.
17 Q All right. What are the next six digits --
18 excuse me. Field 12 is date of occurrence, a length of
19 six, positions 54 through 59. What does that tell us?
20 A 110191.
21 Q Now the date of occurrence we have heard a lot
22 of testimony about is used for compliance with the FCRA
23 obsolescence requirement, correct?
3:40P 24 A Yes.
25 Q And on Metro II you testified that's now called
81
1 the date of first delinquency --
2 A Yes.
3 Q -- which was the definition in the amendment to
4 the FCRA, correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q So again assuming that Young D is a Metro I
7 report to Experian of Mr. Velez's credit, what does
8 Unifund tell Experian the date of occurrence is?
9 MR. DRESSLER: I'll object to that for the heck
10 of it.
11 THE WITNESS: 11-01-91.
12 BY MR. FECHER:
13 Q Now anywhere in Young B is there a date or a
14 field or a reference to date of occurrence that uses
15 those three words? Instead of looking at the entirety
16 of Young B, look just at the trade line for Unifund
17 Corporation.
18 A No. The words "date of occurrence" are not
19 used.
3:41P 20 Q And in the heading above those fields above --
21 strike that -- above that trade line, it doesn't talk
22 about date of occurrence, correct?
23 A No, it does not.
24 Q Okay. The next field number is 13 date of last
25 payment, length of six, position 60 to 65. What are
82
1 those digits?
2 A 050391.
3 Q And does "the date of last payment," are those
4 words used either in the trade line for Unifund form
5 Young B or in the headings of Young B?
6 A I don't believe they are.
7 Q Okay. Did your department have any
8 responsibility for coming up with the format of the
9 reports that would be issued similar to Young B for
10 the other consumers to request a copy of their credit
11 report?
3:43P 12 A No, we didn't.
13 Q Okay. Who did?
14 A That would have been put together by the
15 National Consumer Assistance Center staff.
16 Q They came up with the form, but the data was
17 going to be reported by your department, correct?
18 A The data was taken from the file 1 database --
19 Q Right.
20 A -- which we load the information into the
21 database.
22 Q So if on July 29th, 1999 -- on or about
23 July 29th -- Mr. Velez requests his credit report, you're
24 going to use a format developed by Allen, Texas?
25 A NCAC, yes.
83
1 Q NCAC, and that's going to get the data from the
2 F1 database that's in your control, yes?
3 A From the file 1 database, yes.
3:44P 4 Q And the file 1 database is going to have the
5 information that's been loaded into the database from
6 your contributors, correct?
7 A That's true.
8 Q Now the FCRA says the credit reporting agency
9 can't report obsolete information.
10 A True.
11 Q A credit reporting agency -- that's what
12 Experian is under the Fair Credit Reporting Act, correct?
13 A True.
14 Q Do you have a system in place, a computer
15 program or something, that enables you not to report
16 obsolete information?
17 A Yes, we do.
18 Q And what is that system?
19 A There are two systems in place. The first
20 system is the purge system, and it has ongoing monitors
21 and deletes accounts which have attained a purge cycle.
22 The second piece of that is in what we call a data prep.
23 It looks at accounts trying to be submitted to file; and
24 if their date of occurrence is beyond obsolescence, it
25 will not load that data to file.
84
3:45P 1 Q So Unifund could present a tape containing,
2 let's say, a thousand accounts.
3 A Yes.
4 Q And before that tape is loaded to file, your
5 program goes through all those thousand accounts, and
6 it has an account that has a date of occurrence of
7 March 1st, 1995, and it's going to load that account into
8 your database, isn't it?
9 A If it has a date of occurrence of March '95?
10 Q March of '95, today.
11 A Today it should load it to file.
12 Q But if it has an account -- a date of
13 occurrence of November 1st, 1991, is it going to load it
14 to file?
15 A It should not load it to file.
16 Q If this request is made on July 29, 1999 -- in
17 other words, I want my credit report as of July 29th,
18 1999, and the date of occurrence reported to Experian is
19 November 1st, 1991. It's not going to load it to file,
20 correct?
3:46P 21 A That should be correct.
22 Q It should not appear on the credit report,
23 correct?
24 A That should be correct.
25 Q Assume for me that the credit in the Metro I
85
1 file for Mr. Velez reported to Experian contained a date
2 of occurrence of November 1st, 1991. Can you explain
3 why there is a trade line reference on his credit report
4 dated July 29th, 1999?
5 A No. I cannot make that explanation.
6 Q Metro I always requires date of occurrence,
7 correct, as a field?
8 A Only for those accounts which are derogatory.
9 Q Correct. You can't ever have a date of
10 occurrence if they're current, correct?
3:47P 11 A Correct.
12 Q Did you have any role in developing the form
13 of Young B? Did anybody ask you if this form is a good
14 form, a bad form? What is your input, Mr. Young?
15 A I did not have involvement in that.
16 Q None at all?
17 A None at all.
18 Q But you spent a lot of time for Experian
19 regarding compliance with the Fair Credit Reporting Act,
20 correct --
21 A Correct.
22 Q -- and the relationship between Experian and
23 its contributors as to what information and how that
24 information is going to be reported to Experian so that
25 accurate information is reported, correct --
86
1 A That's correct.
2 Q -- so that Experian can report only that
3 information that it is entitled to report.
4 A That is correct.
5 Q If the date of occurrence was a stated field or
6 a stated disclosure on this credit report, we would know
7 what date Unifund reported as a date of occurrence,
8 correct?
3:48P 9 A If it was taken from the file 1 database, yes,
10 we would.
11 Q And Experian was very much aware of the
12 amendment to the Fair Credit Reporting Act because the
13 contract imposes liability upon Experian for reporting
14 obsolete information.
15 A Is that a question?
16 Q That's a question. Is that why you were
17 involved in that process?
18 A I don't know that I was involved because
19 liability or potential liability was involved. I was
20 involved to make sure that we worked with our customers
21 to get accurate and quality information loaded to file.
22 Q Are there any exceptions that permit the
23 reporting of obsolete information on a credit report to
24 your knowledge?
25 A None that I'm aware of.
87
3:49P 1 Q Are you aware of the exception which permits
2 obsolete information to be reported if the credit
3 transaction at issue involves an extension of credit in
4 excess of $150,000?
5 A I'm aware of that provision in the Fair Credit
6 Reporting Act, but we do not accommodate it within our
7 system.
8 Q But that wasn't the question asked. Were you
9 aware of exceptions which permit the reporting of
10 obsolete information under the act?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And are there two others --
13 A You'd have to enlighten me.
14 Q -- that have to do with underwriting life
15 insurance --
16 A I believe so, but I'm not that familiar with
17 it.
18 Q -- and employment? So contributors can
19 contribute obsolete information which is not going to be
20 picked up because of your program's data prep system
21 that you have in place because Experian has chosen not
22 to report obsolete information even under those
23 circumstances where the Fair Credit Reporting Act permits
24 those reports.
3:51P 25 A That is correct.
88
1 Q Is it improper for a debt collector to report a
2 date of occurrence to you of 1960?
3 A Is it improper?
4 Q Correct.
5 A Yes, it would be improper.
6 Q Why would it be improper?
7 A It would be improper because there is no sense
8 processing volume of input that's not going to be going
9 to file, and it's improper to process that type of
10 information if there is any risk that something could
11 break down and allow that to go to file.
12 Q All right. I used a bad example. Let's not
13 use 1960. It's a seven-year time period under the Fair
14 Credit Reporting Act, right?
15 A Yes.
16 Q But you actually purge after six years, nine
17 months.
18 A That's correct.
19 Q So you've got a built-in gap there, correct?
20 A That's correct.
21 Q So if I report something that's say, and I'm a
22 contributor, and I report something that's seven years,
23 six months old as a date of occurrence, proper or
24 improper?
3:52P 25 A Improper.
89
1 Q But your purge system should take care of that,
2 correct, should not load it?
3 A The data prep should take it out before it gets
4 to file.
5 Q Before it goes to the file.
6 A That's correct.
7 Q Now getting back to Exhibit Young B and looking
8 at the Unifund trade line, Unifund primarily reports to
9 you dates and amounts in the Metro I format, correct?
10 A Correct.
11 Q I mean there is some identifying information.
12 If we go back to Young D, there's name, address, Amex
13 Centurion Bank, those are letters, but beyond that it's
14 static: Information date, account number, amount,
15 status, and you guys came up with -- you guys being
16 Experian -- came up with the words for comments, recent
17 balance, recent purchase, those headings or even on the
18 comment section status collection account. Unifund told
19 you it was a collection account, but they reported that
20 to you as a number 93.
3:53P 21 A Yes.
22 Q And the account history and the collection you
23 came up with, you being Experian, these were account
24 history colon, history as of, correct?
25 A Yes.
90
1 Q Now the last line there, "This account is
2 scheduled to continue on record until July 2005."
3 A Yes.
4 Q Is there any field or position in Metro I which
5 asks the contributor to supply Experian with the date
6 it's scheduled to come off the record?
7 A No, there is not.
8 Q What date in Metro I format derives that
9 information?
10 A The date of occurrence field derives that
11 information.
12 Q So we go back to field 12, positions 54 through
13 59?
14 A I believe that's correct, yes.
3:54P 15 Q And if we have November of '91 in that date of
16 occurrence, number one, it shouldn't be on a report date
17 with that date of November '99, and, number two, it
18 shouldn't say that the account is scheduled to continue
19 on record until July 2005, correct?
20 A That is correct.
21 Q All right. I was skipping around the outline
22 I came up with, but just to confirm a couple things, the
23 tape that comes in has numerous data files.
24 A Yes.
25 Q Even though the capacity might be a million or
91
1 five million, the tape -- if a contributor is reporting
2 five accounts, it's going to have five accounts on that
3 tape, correct?
4 A That is correct.
5 Q But every account has one data file?
3:55P 6 A Yes.
7 Q When did the Metro II reporting format -- when
8 did that develop?
9 A The Metro II format was initiated -- I think
10 the initial dates were in 1996, and it wasn't finalized
11 until probably 1999.
12 Q Okay. So for a while there after the
13 amendments took effect, '97 through '99, people were
14 still reporting in Metro I, correct?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And as we sit here today which is the
17 predominant of the two reporting formats?
18 A Metro format or Metro I, if you will, is the
19 predominant format today.
20 Q Does Metro I request the date an account was
21 purchased?
3:56P 22 A No.
23 Q Now when you bring on a new contributor --
24 A Let me clarify that. It doesn't have a field
25 that's called the date it was purchased, but in the case
92
1 of a bad debt buyer, that would be the date opened.
2 Q It should be --
3 A Should be.
4 Q -- the date opened?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Right. And in a situation where an account
7 has been sold, what should the account seller report to
8 you?
9 A Is the account seller a bad debt buyer?
10 Q No, assume it's the original creditor.
11 A The original creditor? They should report that
12 with an appendage that indicates sold to.
13 Q Right, so people can track between the various
14 credit reports. When they get their credit report if
15 they see Unifund, and let's say I never borrowed money
16 from Unifund. I got a credit card from Unifund, but if
17 it says original creditor AMEX Centurion Bank, they can
18 say well, that's the account, correct?
3:57P 19 A Right.
20 Q And if an original creditor is saying it sold
21 the account, it's one way to tie the two together,
22 correct?
23 A Correct.
24 Q Now you keep -- this database is constantly
25 being updated with information from contributors.
93
1 A Yes.
2 Q And is it possible when an original creditor
3 indicates that it has sold an account, not yet deleted
4 it, they're still reporting it every month, that when
5 the buyer of that account contributes to you, you compare
6 those two bits and pieces?
7 A Are you asking has it occurred to me to do
8 that?
9 Q Is it possible to do that?
10 A If one manually sat down and pulled up a
11 profile, yes, it is possible to do that if both
12 transactions are there.
13 Q Again I got off my train of thought with my
14 outline I came up with. You have a new contributor.
15 You're to go through a review process, and in addition
16 to going over with them what you're supposed to do,
17 the first tape they send you might even be a test tape.
3:59P 18 A Should be.
19 Q It should be a test tape to see how good is
20 your data. Are you reporting the right format. Are your
21 fields lined up. Do you have enough fields or are you
22 reporting too many fields, correct?
23 A Correct.
24 Q And what other elements are reviewed in that
25 process?
94
1 A Every element that is reported is reviewed in
2 the conversion analysis. Also it would -- we take the
3 responsibility to go in and take a random sampling of
4 some of those accounts against the master file to see
5 if they have already been reported by that creditor
6 per chance or by that bad debt buyer just in case.
7 Q Or a seller.
8 A Or a seller.
9 Q Okay.
10 A Okay. And if we happen to see that the account
11 profile pulls up the original account, then it gives us
12 something to compare to.
13 Q Right. And you'll issue a report to the
14 contributor that could say anything from you guys nailed
15 it, you got it all right and we're going to upload your
16 tapes and report your information to you guys have got
17 all these problems, and we're not going to report until
18 you fix them to our satisfaction --
4:00P 19 A That's correct.
20 Q -- right?
21 A That's correct.
22 Q Generally speaking how long does that process
23 take assuming that there is not a whole host of problems
24 and both sides appear willing to -- especially the
25 contributor -- appears willing to solve any problems?
95
1 A I would tell a creditor going through that
2 process that they should anticipate that to be 90 days.
3 Q Three months?
4 A Three months.
5 Q And so assuming that those problems are getting
6 fixed in that three-month time period, eventually a point
7 in time will come where Experian will be confident in the
8 information being provided to it by the contributor and
9 say "We're going to load your data."
10 A Yes.
11 Q Now if Unifund started this process in '95 and
12 is reporting today, you're not suppressing them, are you?
13 So eventually whatever problems occurred between Unifund
14 and Experian were solved, correct?
15 A Correct.
16 Q And when you said every field is examined, you
17 included the date of occurrence, correct?
4:01P 18 A That's correct.
19 Q So you wanted Unifund -- you took a look at
20 that information and said how are they reporting their
21 date of occurrence, how does that match up to what they
22 should be reporting as a bad debt buyer as one of the
23 things that they do, and does it make sense to us. Is
24 that a manual or computerized comparison or both?
25 A It's both.
96
1 Q Okay. But somebody sits down and says wait a
2 minute. They're reporting a date of occurrence that's
3 the same as the date it was opened, and that's not right.
4 A Correct.
5 Q You're going to tell them that it's not right.
6 You're not doing it correctly, correct?
7 A We're going to tell them that and question what
8 the source of it is.
9 Q And you're not going to load their tapes until
10 they comply, correct?
11 A That's true. Can we assume then that if a
12 contributor has tapes which are being loaded, they have
13 complied with your requirements and that you are
14 satisfied that they are reporting dates and data
15 correctly?
4:02P 16 A Yes.
17 Q Okay. Now do you do random audits of your
18 contributors just to check?
19 A Yes, we do.
20 Q Do you do random audits that are specific to
21 the bad debt industry?
22 A Not that I'm aware of.
23 Q To your knowledge have you ever audited Unifund
24 tapes after the initial tapes or the initial process was
25 gone through and you were satisfied they were reporting
97
1 information correctly?
2 A Not until February of this year.
3 Q I'm going to speak solely about prior to
4 January 1st, 2001. So we have no audits. If there had
5 been an audit, it would show up in some document that we
6 did the audit and it turned out fine or we did the
7 audit and had these problems. And if the audit showed
8 problems, there would be a ton of communication back to
9 the contributor saying you were okay on day one, but
10 you're not okay now, correct?
4:03P 11 A That's correct.
12 Q So if there isn't such a letter, can we assume
13 that Unifund was not audited or if it was audited, the
14 data was acceptable to Experian?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Now if contributors -- you talked about
17 conversion, and you said the conversion process to a new
18 creditor -- new contributor is called conversion which to
19 me kind of strikes me as strange. We're not converting
20 anything. It's the first time in the door, right?
21 A Yes.
22 Q When they convert from Metro I to Metro II, is
23 it the same review process?
24 A Yes, it should be, and that's called a
25 reconversion.
_________________
David Szwak
Chairman, Consumer Protection Section, Louisiana State Bar Association
Bodenheimer, Jones & Szwak, LLC
416 Travis Street, Suite 1404
Mid South Tower
Shreveport, Louisiana 71101
318-424-1400
Fax 318-221-6555 |
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98
1 Q Reconversion. And Metro II has a whole bunch
2 of fields --
3 A Yes.
4 Q -- 426 base character --
5 A Bytes, not fields.
6 Q You're right. 426 positions at least.
4:04P 7 A Yes.
8 Q But Unifund hasn't gone through that conversion
9 process -- reconversion, correct?
10 A That's what I understand, yes.
11 Q And again we testified earlier that if you are
12 alerted as to problems with data being produced to you,
13 you're going to review it, and you're going to run
14 your -- did you say scrubs?
15 A No.
16 Q No? What do you use, the term you use to
17 determine whether or not the data had reliability?
18 A I'm not sure what term you're --
19 Q Say the Attorney General from Ohio writes you
20 a letter that says this creditor or this contributor is
21 supplying bad information. You're not going to ignore
22 the Attorney General of Ohio --
23 A No.
24 Q -- or not California or not Texas, but you're
25 going to take a look at what the Ohio Attorney General
99
1 asked you to take a look at, correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q If you get a letter saying this contributor may
4 not be reporting correct data to you, you're going to do
5 an analysis --
4:05P 6 A Yes.
7 Q -- "you" being Experian --
8 A Yes.
9 Q -- under your department.
10 A Yes.
11 Q And again that -- any result, any reports,
12 letters, notifications, that's going to be somewhere in
13 the records of Experian?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And so if there isn't such a record, nobody
16 complained, no Attorney General or other sufficient kind
17 of person that had you do an overall review of the
18 information being supplied to you by that contributor,
19 correct --
20 A Correct.
21 Q -- or if the audit shows or that review process
22 shows that the information is not reliable, you're going
23 to suppress at that time, correct?
24 A Correct.
25 Q Suppress first, ask questions later, correct?
100
1 A Yes.
2 Q You have no recollection that ever occurred
3 with Unifund, correct --
4 A No.
5 Q -- prior to January 1st, 2001?
6 A No, I do not.
7 Q If you reject a tape from a contributor, you're
8 going to tell them we have rejected that tape, and you're
9 going to tell them why, correct --
4:07P 10 A Yes.
11 Q -- your department?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Do you have any recollection that a tape
14 supplied to you by Unifund after they converted, after
15 the conversion process prior to January 1st, 2001, was
16 rejected by Experian?
17 A I'm not aware of one.
18 Q And one of the reasons that a tape would be
19 rejected is that the dates of occurrence, they're all
20 wrong.
21 A Yes.
22 Q None of these dates are reliable, and we're
23 just going to reject the whole tape.
24 A Or a large number of them were wrong, and it
25 caused a large number of rejections.
101
1 Q Now if the individual accounts -- we talked
2 about a tape coming in that contains anywhere from one
3 to a million accounts -- if individual accounts aren't
4 uploaded into the -- may I use the term "uploaded" into
5 the F1 database?
6 A You may.
7 Q Those individual accounts, there will not
8 be notification back to Unifund that of the thousand
9 accounts reported, we did not load -- upload two because
10 you had an obsolete date; is that correct?
4:08P 11 A That's correct.
12 Q But Unifund can find that information out,
13 can't they?
14 A They can contact us and find that information
15 out.
16 Q There has to be reasons tapes are rejected
17 other than incorrect dates of occurrence, correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Not with Unifund to your knowledge --
20 A Not that I'm aware of.
21 Q -- in your department?
22 A No.
23 Q Did you write the program, that data prep
24 program?
25 A No.
102
1 Q You said you're a programmer, right?
2 A No. I said I went to trade school to learn
3 programming many years ago.
4 Q I love Windows, but without a mouse I'm at a
5 complete loss, but I believe that the data prep program
6 is not a Windows program.
4:09P 7 A Correct.
8 Q Do you know what type of language it's in?
9 A No, I don't.
10 Q But you know it's possible that someone could
11 tear apart those codes and determine which fields they're
12 going to when that date process -- data prep process is
13 run. It's a flowchart, correct?
14 A True.
15 Q Now before I upload this information, this
16 information -- the dates in this field must be greater
17 than X or they don't take it?
18 A Yes. Data prep is actually multiple programs
19 that prepare the data to go to the update process.
20 Q One of them is looking for that date of
21 occurrence?
22 A Yes.
23 Q We can go through and figure out what fields
24 it's looking for in the Metro I format that you're
25 getting from the contributor?
103
1 A Yes.
2 Q And has that program been changed since its
3 inception, that series of programs?
4:10P 4 A Probably, yes.
5 Q Probably more than once?
6 A Probably, yes.
7 Q And all those changes should be able -- I mean
8 this is the -- and what department -- you testified
9 earlier the software development --
10 A Yes, they would make those changes.
11 Q Who is the head of software development?
12 A I guess that comes under the auspices of John
13 Niebergall at the highest level at this point.
14 THE REPORTER: Could you spell that?
15 THE WITNESS: N, like Nancy, i-e-b-e-r-g-a-l-l.
16 MR. FECHER: You're not going to write that
17 in?
18 MR. DRESSLER: It will be in the deposition
19 when I read it.
20 BY MR. FECHER:
21 Q And so we can track that, do you have any
22 involvement in that process? Do you call that department
23 up and say "We've got a problem. We need to address
24 this"?
25 A On occasion.
104
1 Q And a result of that, you will work with them
2 on updating and debugging or correcting or making better
3 that program?
4:11P 4 A Yes.
5 Q But again it's a flowchart. Before I upload
6 this account information, the date of occurrence has to
7 be -- I'm really bad -- less than a certain date, greater
8 than a certain date, one of those two?
9 A It can be followed through a flowchart, yes.
10 Q All right. Now when somebody requests, either
11 a creditor or prospective creditor, for a credit bureau
12 report or a consumer for their own credit report, there
13 is a specific process that is followed, correct?
14 A Yes, that's true.
15 Q And that's the search through the database for
16 all trade lines that reference this individual.
4:12P 17 A I believe that's correct.
18 Q And it's whatever is in the database at the
19 time.
20 A That's correct.
21 Q And you don't get -- contributors should report
22 to you monthly?
23 A Yes.
24 Q But they don't report all on the same day of
25 the month?
105
1 A No. It's scattered throughout. Some of them
2 report by cycles.
3 Q And when they -- when that tape comes in, or
4 whatever media form it takes, you process it. You don't
5 wait.
6 A No.
7 Q So it's a fluid database.
8 A Yes, it is.
9 Q When we talk about the date of occurrence and
10 its relationship to whether or not that information
11 should be uploaded, are you aware of any other fields
12 in the Metro I format that are examined by that data
13 prep process to determine whether or not account
14 information should be uploaded?
15 A Yes, for instance, name field is looked at
16 and --
4:13P 17 Q Go ahead.
18 A -- something in the name field, and something
19 in the address field could cause the record to be
20 rejected.
21 Q But I'm talking about for obsolescence
22 purposes.
23 A For obsolescence, no.
24 Q Okay. Now you testified that we cannot go back
25 in time and say show me what my credit report looked like
106
1 as of October 1st, 1999.
4:14P 2 A No, we cannot.
3 Q And if I had requested my credit report on
4 October 1st, 1999, could you re-create it for me?
5 A I don't know what the retention is in the NCAC
6 system.
7 Q Is there a time period though that I can go
8 back and have a previously produced credit bureau report
9 produced for me at a later date?
10 A Yes, there is.
11 Q That's the NCAC system?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And what is her name again or somebody?
14 A Pat Henderson would be the person I would call.
15 Now Brian may have another contact that could get the
16 information faster.
17 Q I can't ask Brian those questions. So that
18 is only reporting that snapshot, if you know, of what was
19 reported to the consumer. It does not say or does it
20 say what information was supplied by the contributors
21 of that consumer as of the date the report has been
22 requested?
4:15P 23 A Well, I think that's the same thing. If the
24 report is provided to the consumer on X date, then the
25 information as of that point would be retained that was
107
1 reported by the subscribers at that point.
2 Q Maybe I inartfully asked my question. We
3 already established that the date of occurrence as
4 reported by the contributors as a required field does not
5 appear on the credit bureau report.
6 A Correct.
7 Q So my question is what is at the NCAC, a
8 snapshot of the credit report or is it a snapshot of what
9 the contributors have said about the consumer as of that
10 date, if you know?
11 A I don't understand the difference between the
12 two as you're posing it.
4:16P 13 Q Well, I'll --
14 A It's a snapshot of the credit report.
15 Q That's right, and the credit report does not
16 have on it the date of occurrence.
17 A Correct.
18 Q And so do you believe -- do you think or do
19 you know if that snapshot is going to have the date of
20 occurrence?
21 A It's going to have a field that represents the
22 date of occurrence, but it will not have a field labeled
23 "date of occurrence."
24 Q It's going to have a field --
25 Could you repeat his answer?
108
1 (Record read.)
2 BY MR. FECHER:
3 Q Okay. Where is it going to have a field that
4 states the date of occurrence but not labeled the date of
5 occurrence?
6 A Where?
7 Q Yes.
8 A Within the record it's going to have a date
9 field.
10 Q For date of occurrence?
11 A That represents the date of occurrence, yes.
12 Q So we can call NCAC and ask them to duplicate
13 for us Young B, and your testimony is that it's going to
14 have the date of occurrence as reported by Unifund in
15 that snapshot?
4:18P 16 A I believe it will, yes.
17 MR. FECHER: Well, I guess that's one question
18 we can ask on July 18th.
19 MR. DRESSLER: Yes.
20 BY MR. FECHER:
21 Q Do snap- --
22 A Well, back that up. This being Young B --
23 Q Correct.
24 A -- and you're asking if they replicated this
25 document, would it have a date of occurrence?
109
1 Q Right.
2 A No, because you don't see it here; and if it's
3 being replicated, you're not going to see it in another
4 replication.
5 Q All right. That's my understanding of how it
6 works, and I just wanted to make sure we were on the same
7 page.
8 A Yes.
9 Q So on July 18 asking Pat Henderson to re-create
10 that report is not going to show what date of occurrence
11 was reported to you by Unifund.
12 A No, because it doesn't show on this report.
13 Q Do snapshots exist, if you know, when a credit
14 report is provided to other creditors, a similar-type
15 snapshot?
4:19P 16 A No, they don't.
17 Q All right. Now also to be sure we're using
18 the correct, what I believe is the correct terminology,
19 Young B is a consumer disclosure form, and what, you
20 know, a mortgage company might get to determine credit
21 is actually called a credit report.
22 A Yes.
23 Q It's the same information but in a different
24 format.
25 A Different presentation.
110
1 Q Yes, different presentation. Okay. Do you
2 know if a snapshot is taken of the information in the
3 database concerning a consumer when that consumer submits
4 a CDV?
5 A The consumer does not submit a CDV. CDVs are
6 submitted by the repository to the credit grantor, and
7 the credit grantor responds to the repository, and the
8 CDV does not come in contact with the consumer.
9 Q The repository being Experian?
4:20P 10 A Yes.
11 Q But the consumer, more often than not, is going
12 to initiate the CDV by calling Experian and saying it's
13 not me. It's -- I dispute the debt. It shouldn't be
14 reported. It's too old.
15 A That contact would result in the dispute being
16 generated which may result in a CDV going out.
17 Q Do you know if a snapshot is taken of the
18 information in the F1 database as to what information
19 relates to that consumer when that process is
20 accomplished, done? You know, when a consumer makes a
21 complaint which results in a CDV, is it possible that a
22 snapshot of the information --
23 A I'm not that familiar with that area. That's
24 the NCAC.
25 Q So the CDV process -- if a consumer disputes
111
1 the information on his report, is your department ever
2 asked to resolve the dispute?
4:21P 3 A No.
4 Q Okay. So the CDV stuff, that's all --
5 A Well, let me take that back. I also have
6 responsibility to gather public record information, and
7 every now and then I do get a contact because CDVs cannot
8 be sent to the court.
9 Q When you say "public record information,"
10 you're talking judgments, bankruptcies, legal
11 proceedings --
12 A Civil actions.
13 Q Yes, public -- not public in the sense we know
14 about them, but public as they are processed through
15 the --
16 A Court source.
17 Q -- court source.
18 A The judicial system.
19 Q Right.
20 A And sometimes they will come to me as the
21 manager of that area and ask me to intervene because you
22 can't send a CDV to the court. The court doesn't have
23 the relationship with us like a creditor does.
24 Q All right. Ain't that a shame.
25 A I've just got to point that out. Sorry.
112
1 Q That's fine. We appreciate that. The 2001
2 investigation started in February. You think you
3 suppressed in April, and it's still pending as of today.
4 Am I correct you don't have -- you personally do not have
5 any contact or communication with Unifund regarding that
6 report or that investigation?
4:22P 7 A I have not personally had any contact.
8 Q If there is such an investigation, is it
9 assigned to one person or is it assigned to a team?
10 A It would be assigned to a team to review, yes,
11 and there's probably one primary person working it.
12 Q How is that assigned? Who decides which team
13 gets it?
14 A All the subscriber contributors are assigned to
15 a team within the data management area.
16 Q So it sort of goes back to home base. You
17 brought them, and you keep track of them.
18 A No. When you say go back to home base, you
19 brought them in, that's inferring --
20 Q Not the sales --
21 A -- the conversion team.
22 Q Okay. Is it a different -- I was thinking of
23 the conversion team. It's a different team?
24 A There are two teams, or not two teams, but
25 there two areas within the data management area. One
113
1 of those areas is comprised of conversion teams, and
2 they act as consultants from start to finish through the
3 conversion process getting that information loaded. Once
4 that is successfully loaded meeting all the expectations,
5 then it's turned over to what we call the ongoing side,
6 and there are teams on the ongoing side then that make
7 sure that each submittal every month thereafter gets
8 loaded to file.
4:23P 9 Q Okay. And it's going back to that team?
10 A They have the ongoing responsibilities.
11 Q Do you know -- I assume there is a team leader
12 for those teams.
13 A Yes.
14 Q Do you know who the team leader is for the
15 Unifund team?
16 A Yes, I do.
17 Q What is that person's name?
18 A The supervisor for that team would be Judi
19 Beebe, B-e-e-b-e, and it's J-u-d-i.
20 Q Again any documents or everything -- is a new
21 log started, a new document file started with the
22 correspondence? Do you know?
23 A It would be added to the Unifund files.
24 Q All right. Assuming that Exhibit D is what was
25 reported to Experian by Unifund and assume further for me
114
1 that the report provided to Unifund was the report just
2 prior to July 29, 1999, is there any indication as to why
3 that report shows up in that trade line?
4:25P 4 A It is very illogical to me, sir.
5 Q All right. Do you have any knowledge, belief
6 or understanding that Unifund intentionally reports
7 fraudulent data to Experian?
8 A No, I do not.
9 Q Are you aware of any allegation outside this
10 lawsuit or the Barnett litigation, the deposition from
11 yesterday, that Unifund intentionally reported fraudulent
12 data to Experian?
13 A No, I am not.
14 Q Well, do you have any knowledge, belief or
15 understanding that Unifund intentionally changes the
16 date of occurrence on what it reports to Experian?
17 A No, I do not.
18 Q Outside the allegations of this lawsuit, or the
19 Barnett lawsuit, are you aware of any allegations that
20 Unifund intentionally changed the date of occurrence as
21 reported to Experian?
4:26P 22 A No, I am not.
23 Q I'm going to ask the question a different
24 way. In order to report -- I have to think about this
25 question. I'll have to come back to that one. It gave
115
1 me a headache just thinking about it.
2 MR. DRESSLER: Been there.
3 BY MR. FECHER:
4 Q In order for a report to state that an account
5 would continue or will continue a report until 2005, July
6 of 2005, what data must be present in which Metro field?
7 A The date of occurrence field should contain at
8 that point -- you can check my mathematical capabilities
9 here -- of a date that is equal to seven years prior to
10 2005.
4:27P 11 Q Now is it going to be prior to seven years or
12 prior to six years, nine months? You purge at six years,
13 nine months.
14 A But I believe this date is figured at seven
15 years, not six, nine.
16 Q Okay. So the fact that it actually states that
17 it will purge on a date, it might actually purge three
18 months earlier?
19 A A little sooner.
20 Q All right. Do you know if credit reports
21 currently, and I'm using a broad sense of the word, to
22 the consumer or other credit grantors that specifically
23 set forth the date of first delinquency today?
24 A Would you repeat that?
25 Q Do you know if a credit report issued today
116
1 would contain a line item or a descriptive field on the
2 report itself of the date of first delinquency?
4:28P 3 A They do not.
4 Q So if I produced an Experian credit report that
5 contains a field for the date of first delinquency, it's
6 not an Experian credit report?
7 A It wouldn't be one I'm familiar with using that
8 verbiage.
9 Q Using the verbiage "date of first delinquency"?
10 A I wouldn't -- it does not show.
11 Q But Pat Henderson may have a little more
12 information on that?
13 A No.
14 Q Well, I'm going to -- I've got more questions.
15 I want to come back to that issue. I've been asking my
16 questions for some time now, but I'm close to a point
17 where we can take a break.
4:30P 18 Does Experian have any ability to tell us today
19 what Unifund reported to Experian at any time in the past
20 other than the past 30 days or prior to January 1st,
21 2001?
22 A Prior to January 2001?
23 Q Right.
24 A I think the answer to that is yes, we're
25 maintaining copies of what has been submitted.
117
1 Q Since which date?
2 A I don't have an exact date. I think we have
3 them back to the October activity.
4 Q October 2000?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Okay. So you can't go back to July of 1999 and
7 tell us today what Experian reported at that time?
4:31P 8 A No.
9 Q This conversion process, there is a checklist
10 that's maintained, correct?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Do you know if such a conversion checklist
13 exists for Unifund?
14 A It should exist in the manual file folder --
15 Q Okay.
16 A -- that is maintained with Unifund information.
17 It's passed over to the -- from the conversion team to
18 the ongoing side.
19 Q And when all the questions are answered yes,
20 then that's when it's uploaded?
21 A Yes, or the references are proven to be
22 correct.
23 Q When a debt buyer purchases an account, is it
24 to report the account in its name?
25 A Yes. And they will report in the F1 segment,
118
1 the original creditor.
4:32P 2 Q So assuming that Unifund purchased this debt --
3 I mean that part of the credit report is accurate
4 assuming the debt was initially with AMEX Centurion Bank.
5 A Yes.
6 Q Now you testified earlier today that the
7 investigation -- the current investigation was a
8 comparison as between a date of occurrence matched the
9 date opened, correct?
10 A I have to think about that a second. Yes, I
11 did say that.
4:33P 12 Q All right. And so we're looking in the Metro
13 fields. You've in some way developed a program that says
14 show me for all accounts reported by Unifund how many
15 times the date of occurrence matched the date opened.
16 A Would you repeat the question? I --
17 Q Certainly. Somebody developed a program, or
18 a program already existed, that said go into the data
19 reported to us by Unifund and list for me all the
20 accounts in which the account opened equaled the --
21 excuse me -- the date opened equaled the date of
22 occurrence.
23 A I believe somebody put an Excel spreadsheet
24 together that gave us the capability to do that.
25 Q The team?
119
1 A Yes.
2 Q So that piece of paper or the computer file of
3 the Excel spreadsheet should exist, and we should be able
4 to get ahold of that?
5 A We may or may not. If they just ran it off the
6 submittal to take a look at it and they did it in a TSO
7 data set and didn't retain it -- only if they printed it
8 off would there be a copy of it there.
4:34P 9 Q So if they didn't print it off, we can't go
10 back and say which of those accounts were bad checks
11 reported to Experian by Unifund, correct?
12 A Unless the actual submittal for that period of
13 time is still available. Then we can re-create it.
14 Q Do the same process?
15 A Yes.
16 Q All right. When you talk about the
17 investigation, you say it was done by an analyst?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Do you know the name of the analyst?
20 A Lori Iwashita.
21 THE REPORTER: Can you spell that?
22 THE WITNESS: I-w-a-s-h-i-t-a.
23 BY MR. FECHER:
24 Q And do you recall who -- I mean you said it
25 started with one account?
120
1 A Yes, I believe so.
2 Q Do you recall the -- I don't want you to give
3 me the name at this point in time, but do you recall or
4 does a record exist of whose credit report -- who that
5 person was?
4:35P 6 A No. I don't think the indication of the
7 individual was on there.
8 Q All right. Well, let's assume that it was
9 Mr. Velez, that it was this July 1999 credit report. Now
10 the date of occurrence is -- excuse me. The date opened
11 that your spreadsheet would have kicked out or your
12 process would have been December of 1990, correct?
13 That's what you said you're going to look for with that
14 Unifund account, what is the date opened, right?
15 A Right.
16 Q And the next step was to look for the date of
17 occurrence and is it the same. If it was the Velez
18 account, the date of occurrence should have been --
19 A Futuristic.
20 Q Why do you say "futuristic"? I thought it
21 would be the same as the date opened.
4:36P 22 A Not in the case you're referring to here --
23 Q Well --
24 A -- 12-90 and 11-91.
25 Q Now you're including two exhibits, all right.
121
1 A Okay.
2 Q Just think solely about this exhibit. You said
3 okay?
4 A I'm sorry. This one. I was looking at the
5 wrong one. Sorry.
6 Q Exhibit B.
7 A Okay.
8 Q Show me every file that shows a date opened
9 equals date of occurrence. Mr. Velez pops up as date
10 opened as December of 1990. The date of occurrence for
11 this report to come back out should say December of 1990,
12 correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q But as of December of 1997 it never should have
15 uploaded.
16 A Correct.
17 Q Okay. And if Unifund is reporting the date
18 the account originally opened with the creditor, that
19 generally is an old date --
4:37P 20 A Yes.
21 Q -- right?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Generally before the date of occurrence, other
24 than bad checks and medical or other than bad checks.
25 A Yes.
122
1 Q So if Unifund is reporting to you the date open
2 with the original creditor and is also reporting that as
3 date of occurrence, do you think that's a benefit to the
4 consumer?
5 A It could be construed as a benefit to the
6 consumer.
7 Q I just have a few follow-up questions. We
8 talked about purge versus unloaded. You guys continually
9 run a program that says we've got data in our system, and
10 it's been there for so long that we're going to purge it
11 out. That's step one to prohibit reporting obsolete
12 inforation, and the other is the upload for the data prep
13 process where we don't bring it into the system because
14 it's already --
4:38P 15 A The purge does not prohibit information being
16 reported, as you indicated, but rather the purge actually
17 identifies that information which is eligible to be
18 removed from the file that is currently on file.
19 Q Okay. So it drops it off the file.
20 A Yes.
21 Q All right. Well, the next month if somebody
22 reports that same data, is it going to upload?
23 A If it has the same dates on it, no. It should
24 be rejected in data prep.
_________________
David Szwak
Chairman, Consumer Protection Section, Louisiana State Bar Association
Bodenheimer, Jones & Szwak, LLC
416 Travis Street, Suite 1404
Mid South Tower
Shreveport, Louisiana 71101
318-424-1400
Fax 318-221-6555 |
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25 Q All right. I can't read my own handwriting.
123
1 You're sure it was one account that was discovered at
2 the end of February 2001 that started this process?
4:39P 3 A It was one account indicated in the log that
4 was identified. It didn't say there were 20. It just
5 said an account was identified.
6 Q In the Metro I format does the date opened
7 field affect the seven-year reporting time in any way,
8 that field alone?
9 A Not unless that is used in lieu of the date of
10 occurrence, no.
11 Q Well, "used in lieu of the date of occurrence,"
12 do you mean if somebody reports a date opened but not a
13 date of occurrence?
14 A Well, if a date of occurrence being reported
15 is ineffective or out of sequence or not usable, it's
16 possible to use the date the account opened, but this is
17 not applicable to bad debt buyers or collection agencies.
18 It would have to be as reported by the original creditor
19 that we could substitute the date opened for the date of
20 occurrence.
4:41P 21 Q And if a tape comes in to you which has no
22 data, not even zeros, blank data from a bad debt buyer
23 for the date of occurrence, do you take the tape?
24 A Every record having blank out dates of
25 occurrence?
124
1 Q A significant bulk of them.
2 A If the significant bulk of them were invalid or
3 contained zeros --
4 Q Contained nothing.
5 A Nothing? No, we would reject it.
6 Q And if the individual accounts contained
7 nothing in those fields --
8 A It cannot go to file.
9 Q That individual file, right?
10 A Yes, the individual report cannot go to
11 file. We probably would put the entire transmittal on
12 hold.
13 Q All right. My client has been listening in.
14 I want to ask my client -- take a five-minute break and
15 ask my client if there's anything he wants me to ask. I
16 need to find an exhibit, and then I'll be concluded at
17 this stage.
4:42P 18 MR. DRESSLER: I probably have like 20 minutes
19 after listening to him. I want to be heads up with you.
20 We're getting late, and I recognize that.
21 (Recess.)
4:52P 22 BY MR. FECHER:
23 Q I do have a few more questions. We talked
24 earlier about whether or not a credit bureau or a
25 consumer creditor would have a date of first delinquency.
125
1 Is it possible for there to be what I've been told is
2 known as a CPU-to-CPU request, in other words, computer
3 A talks to Experian's computer and pulls it out? Do you
4 know what I'm talking about?
5 A Well, a CPU request would be identified by
6 leaving an inquiry, and there would be a date associated
7 with that.
8 Q Well, a date associated with the inquiry, but
9 does a CPU-to-CPU request, does that report have a first
10 delinquency date?
11 A I'm not familiar with CPU-to-CPU output format.
12 There is like seven different versions of it, and I think
13 three of them are currently in place, and I don't deal
14 with it on an even -- I haven't dealt with it in eight
15 years.
4:53P 16 Q Is there a date field for a second delinquency?
17 A In CPU?
18 Q Currently. I mean all the information we're
19 talking about, whatever form it comes out of, it's
20 reported to Experian in either Metro I or Metro II,
21 correct?
22 A Right.
23 Q So if a credit report, whether it's to the
24 consumer or to another creditor, CPU-to-CPU request,
25 is there a field in Metro II that talks about second
126
1 delinquency?
2 A I don't think there is.
3 Q We talked about this earlier, Mr. Dressler
4 and I, that I have reports that we're not going to
5 identify on the record because it's on other debtors and
6 for privacy issues. Now it says here for this subscriber
7 first delinquency and second delinquency. For the same
8 report, different contributor, first delinquency and
9 second delinquency. Is that Metro II or is that a
10 calculated date that Experian throws in?
4:54P 11 A The only thing that I think that that might be
12 taken from is from the payment grid --
13 Q For this --
14 A -- where you have 12 or 24 months.
15 Q For this debtor/client/customer/consumer we
16 have a trade line for Unifund Corporation. We have first
17 delinquency, second delinquency.
18 A I do not --
19 MR. FECHER: Let the record reflect all counsel
20 and the witness are looking at the same document, and
21 we're all peering at it very closely.
22 THE WITNESS: And I honestly --
23 BY MR. FECHER:
24 Q I have Unifund Corp as the subscriber.
25 A Right.
127
1 Q I've got first delinquency, second delinquency.
2 This is a purchase debt, right? We all agree it has a
3 line for original grantor, and it's not Unifund.
4:55P 4 A True.
5 MR. DOAK: Ask the witness if he knows what the
6 document is and start there. You put a document in front
7 of him.
8 THE WITNESS: I don't know what it is.
9 BY MR. FECHER:
10 Q Pat from NCAC, is she the person to ask
11 questions about this format here?
12 A I don't know what that format is.
13 Q All right. Then I'll --
14 MR. DRESSLER: Take them back. No problem.
15 BY MR. FECHER:
16 Q All right. Do you have any recorded
17 document -- electronic, excuse me, data that would
18 confirm or disprove that Unifund will assert was the
19 information we provided to Experian in July of 1999 as to
20 Mr. Velez's account?
21 A I don't think we have any input records
22 available that would show what was submitted at that
23 time.
4:57P 24 Q So if we assert, we being Unifund, assert
25 that we told Experian that the date of occurrence for
128
1 Mr. Velez's account was November of 1991 and did so at a
2 time just prior to or the next time prior to this July
3 date, Experian can't confirm our assertion or disprove
4 our assertion.
5 A That's true.
6 Q We talked earlier that the snapshots are
7 retained when a consumer requests their credit report,
8 correct?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Do you know if that's an Experian-only policy
11 or do you know if the other credit reporting agencies
12 have a similar policy? Is it a federal requirement, if
13 you know?
14 A I believe that all the repositories keep a
15 snapshot of what was disclosed at the time. That's
16 based on having received my file and gone back to other
17 repositories and followed up with them.
4:58P 18 MR. FECHER: No further questions at this time.
19 MR. DRESSLER: I assume, Mr. Doak, that you
20 don't want to ask any questions.
21 MR. DOAK: No.
22 MR. DRESSLER: Okay. I just want to make
23 sure.
24 MR. DOAK: I might, but I'll let you finish.
25 MR. DRESSLER: Okay. Fair enough.
129
1 FURTHER EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. DRESSLER:
3 Q Mr. Young, would you look at Young B again.
4 Well, actually before we get there, Young D --
5 A Got it.
6 Q -- you have never seen that document before?
7 A Not before today.
8 Q Okay. You don't have any personal knowledge as
9 to how that document is formatted or laid out, do you?
10 A Just based on what I'm hearing today and seeing
11 the F1 segment on there, it now appears that it's a Metro
12 format.
13 Q Okay. Would that be based on Mr. Fecher's
14 representation or based on your own personal knowledge?
15 A Based on what was represented here today and
16 long-term knowledge of that's about how the format is
17 laid out.
4:59P 18 Q Okay. On Young B, the credit report -- I may
19 have asked you some of this, but I don't know -- do you
20 know where this information comes from as far as the
21 database is concerned, and I'm referring to the
22 collection dates?
23 A No, I do not.
24 Q Well, do you have any idea how that gets on
25 there?
130
1 A No. The NCAC system takes the information
2 from file 1 and formats it into a more user-friendly
3 environment, a consumer-friendly English version is how
4 it's represented.
5 Q But does the file 1 that you're talking about
6 contain information regarding collections?
7 A It contains information regarding the trade
8 line, each trade line being reported.
9 Q Okay. But would you specifically find in F1 --
10 is that what we're calling it, file 1?
11 A File 1, not F1. F1 is a segment that is used
12 to identify the original creditor when a report is
13 provided to us.
5:00P 14 Q Would this information, the date that this
15 account went to collections be located in file 1?
16 MR. FECHER: Objection. Asked and answered.
17 THE WITNESS: It would not when it went to
18 collections. Only, in other words, if you look at the
19 Metro format, there's not an indication when it went to
20 collections.
21 BY MR. DRESSLER:
22 Q Okay.
23 A There is a date that should represent when the
24 account was assigned to a collection agency or when it
25 was purchased by a debt buyer, but there is not a unique
131
1 field that says this is when it went to collection. It
2 could have gone to collection five days after it was due
3 with the original creditor.
4 Q Okay. So I guess -- so you don't know how this
5 data gets on the report.
6 A And I don't know what it relates to. I think
7 it's a reference that could be explained, but I cannot
8 explain it to you. I'm sorry.
9 Q Does the NCA collect data?
5:01P 10 A No.
11 Q Your division would be the only division from
12 Experian that collects data?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Okay. All right. Well, we'll try it on the
15 back end.
16 A Now let me clarify that if I may.
17 Q Yeah.
18 A Data can be input manually, and it wouldn't
19 come through our department.
20 Q At NCA?
21 A No. It would come through -- well, actually
22 that would be profile maintenance, and it would come
23 through there, but it's very limited information.
24 Q I mean do they have some sort of regular
25 procedure that will add data with regard to collections
132
1 manually at NCA?
2 A No.
3 Q Okay.
4 A And there is another potential called instant
5 update where a subscriber can submit data, and that goes
6 in in an online environment. Again it doesn't come
7 through us.
5:02P 8 Q Okay. If you had to take a guess, where would
9 that information appear in the file 1?
10 MR. FECHER: Objection. Requires the witness
11 to speculate.
12 BY MR. DRESSLER:
13 Q Given your wealth of knowledge regarding this
14 database that you manage, where do you think this
15 information came from?
16 MR. FECHER: Same objection.
17 THE WITNESS: I honestly don't know where it
18 would come from.
19 BY MR. DRESSLER:
20 Q All right. The line below is "This account is
21 scheduled to continue on record until 7-2005." Would
22 it be fair to say that more likely than not given that
23 statement that appears on the consumer credit report that
24 Unifund told Experian that the date of occurrence was
25 7-1998?
133
1 MR. FECHER: Objection. Asked and answered.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, it would imply that.
3 BY MR. DRESSLER:
4 Q Well, could you say more likely than not, since
5 we can't get the information itself, if we go backwards
6 given this statement of 7-2005 that appears on the credit
7 report, is it more likely than not that Unifund told you
8 the date of occurrence was 7-1998?
5:03P 9 MR. FECHER: Objection. Requires the witness
10 to speculate. Asked and answered.
11 BY MR. DRESSLER:
12 Q Go ahead.
13 A Yes, I believe that.
14 Q Do you know where the information regarding
15 date of status or last reported comes from?
16 A It's taken from the trade item as it resides on
17 the file 1 database.
18 Q Do you know what -- we went through a whole
19 litany of the Metro I format and what all those numbers
20 correspond to. Do you know what the information date of
21 status corresponds to in the Metro I format?
22 A No. I honestly don't. I'd be guessing at it
23 to tell you that right now today.
24 MR. FECHER: Objection. Requires the witness
25 to speculate.
134
1 BY MR. DRESSLER:
2 Q Do you know where the information for the last
3 reported comes from on the Metro format?
5:04P 4 A I don't believe it's taken from the Metro
5 format. It's taken from the data program, the data prep
6 program that is used to load the account, the file
7 activity date.
8 Q Do you have any understanding what date of
9 status means?
10 A Date of status?
11 Q Yes.
12 A Date of status should indicate the relationship
13 to the status being reported.
14 Q What does that mean?
15 A It would be the date that the collection
16 account was reported as a collection account.
17 Q Put more plainly, does that mean it ought to be
18 the date that the account was reported as having gone to
19 collections?
20 A In the case of a bad debt buyer not the date
21 that it went to collections at the original creditor
22 but the date it was reported by that subscriber as a
23 collection account status.
5:05P 24 Q Okay. Should that date ever change in the
25 update process?
135
1 A No.
2 Q Do you have any understanding of what the
3 "Reported Since" information is.
4 A I would presume that that would be how long
5 that account has been reported by that credit grantor.
6 MR. FECHER: Objection. Move to strike. The
7 witness speculated.
8 BY MR. DRESSLER:
9 Q Okay. Do you have any idea where the
10 information appearing at reported since comes from in the
11 Metro I format?
12 A I don't believe it comes from the Metro I
13 format. There is not a field in the Metro format I or
14 II.
15 Q All right. The date of status comes from the
16 Metro I format then, right? No, no, negative. Last
17 reported comes from the Metro I format, true? Did I say
18 that right the first time?
5:06P 19 MR. FECHER: I don't think that was his
20 testimony.
21 MR. DRESSLER: I don't think it was either.
22 Q Which one of these two did you say came from
23 the Metro I format, if any?
24 A Okay. What I believe I said was that the date
25 of status comes from the processing of the tape showing
136
1 that particular trade line. In other words, that's the
2 first time that it was reported by that subscriber as a
3 collection status.
4 Q Okay. I know you don't know a lot about the
5 dispute process, but I want to stick on the -- with
6 regard to the maintenance and updating of the database
7 in relation to the dispute process. If Experian
8 initiates a dispute verification with a subscriber like
9 Unifund and Unifund sends data back verifying or not
10 verifying that data and the data is different than what
11 you have in your database, what will you do with the new
12 data?
5:08P 13 MR. FECHER: Can we read that question back?
14 (Record read.)
15 MR. FECHER: Good question.
16 THE WITNESS: If the data is logical and
17 acceptable, it will be changed accordingly.
18 BY MR. DRESSLER:
19 Q Okay. Let me direct your attention to Young C
20 on the back page. I want you to look at the date of
21 status on that page. See how the date of status there is
22 7-98?
5:09P 23 A Correct.
24 Q Now look at the credit report or rather the
25 consumer report labeled Young B. Do you see you've got
137
1 it in front of your hands. See how the date of status is
2 8-98?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Do you have any idea why that date would change
5 in the update or verification process?
6 A No, I do not.
7 Q We talked earlier it shouldn't change, right?
8 A True.
9 Q So it would appear as if the information that
10 Unifund provided to you in the update process changed
11 that data.
12 MR. FECHER: Objection. Could you read the
13 question back, please.
14 MR. DRESSLER: I can do it again.
15 Q It would appear as if the information Unifund
16 provided to you during the update process they changed
17 the date of status.
18 MR. FECHER: Objection. Requires the witness
19 to speculate.
5:10P 20 THE WITNESS: It appears that the date is 30
21 days' difference.
22 BY MR. DRESSLER:
23 Q Okay. Well, that's a difference, right?
24 A Yeah.
25 Q Is there any reason to believe that Experian
138
1 would have changed that information?
2 A Inasmuch as it represents a date of status or
3 last reported and we pick up information from subscribers
4 and have activity dates on it, and let's say that a tape
5 comes in June 29th, the activity date is June, okay.
6 When we get to processing that, it's now the 3rd or 4th
7 of July --
8 Q Okay.
9 A -- so it's in a different month, okay, and that
10 would be the only reason I could think of that the date
11 would be different on those two, that close.
5:11P 12 Q Let me show you -- look at the "Reported Since"
13 column. On the update of the report it says "7-98."
14 A Which form?
15 Q Young D.
16 MR. FECHER: C.
17 BY MR. DRESSLER:
18 Q On Young C --
19 A Okay.
20 Q -- the "Reported Since" column shows 5-99.
21 Well, you're right, 7-98. Do you see that --
22 A Got it.
23 Q -- on the consumer credit report?
24 MR. FECHER: Young B.
25 BY MR. DRESSLER:
139
1 Q The reported since is now 5-99. See the
2 difference?
3 A Yes, I do.
4 Q Do you have any idea why those would be
5 different?
6 A No, I don't. The reports were generated
7 several months apart, and I do not know why.
8 Q Okay. On the verification marked as Young C
9 we see in the comments again "This account is scheduled
10 to continue on record until 7-2005." Do you see that?
5:12P 11 A Yes.
12 Q It would appear then based on your knowledge
13 and experience with this system that more likely than not
14 during the update and verification process Unifund again
15 told Experian that the date of occurrence was 7-98.
16 A It would appear that way.
17 MR. FECHER: Objection. Move to strike. It
18 requires the witness to speculate.
19 BY MR. DRESSLER:
20 Q Okay. Well, in case the judge agrees with
21 Mr. Fecher, let me ask a few more questions. Let's talk
22 about the procedure for you putting down this account is
23 scheduled to continue until blank. What information does
24 the system, and I mean the database, utilize to make that
25 statement?
140
5:13P 1 A It would be the date of occurrence.
2 Q Okay. So if I understand this correctly, you
3 will get date of occurrence information from a subscriber
4 like Unifund, and then you all will automatically
5 calculate seven years from that date of occurrence and
6 put that statement on the consumer credit form that says
7 that the account will be continued on until blank?
8 A That's correct.
9 Q What happens if -- and Mr. Fecher may have
10 covered this -- what happens if the data supplied by
11 Unifund doesn't have a date of occurrence for an account?
12 A That record cannot go to file.
13 Q That calculation, is that something automatic
14 that's programmed into the computer system?
15 A The calculation for this statement that says
16 the account is scheduled to continue on record until?
5:14P 17 Q Yes. Thanks for clarifying.
18 A That is calculated by the software in NCAC
19 that's used to make the disclosures, yes.
20 Q Okay. So to be clear, it's not like one of
21 your employees is doing this by hand.
22 A That's correct.
23 Q The computer does it automatically.
24 A That's correct.
25 Q Have you ever known of an instance during your
141
1 tenure with Experian in which this statement, the account
2 is scheduled to continue until blank did not correspond
3 with the date of occurrence that you received from a
4 subscriber?
5 A I'm not aware of that happening, no.
6 Q So if Unifund's position is correct that the
7 date of occurrence they supplied to you was 12-90 as
8 they --
5:15P 9 MR. FECHER: 11-91.
10 BY MR. DRESSLER:
11 Q -- 11-91 as they allege in Young D and the
12 process then somehow automatically spit out a cutoff date
13 of --
14 MR. FECHER: July 2005.
15 MR. DRESSLER: July 2005, thank you.
16 Q -- then this would be the first time in the
17 history of your experience where that type of mismatch
18 has occurred?
19 A It definitely would.
20 Q In the billions and billions of accounts that
21 you all have managed since before I was born, this would
22 be the first time it has ever happened?
23 MR. FECHER: Objection. It was not required to
24 report this information before you were born unless you
25 were born after October 1st, 1997, and you've got --
142
1 well, your hair is about right, but --
2 MR. DRESSLER: Now we're getting personal.
3 Well, that's true. I guess I assumed something.
4 Q Did you all -- was that seven years -- how long
5 has that seven-year requirement been in place?
6 A The seven-year requirement has been in place
7 since the Fair Credit Reporting Act was implemented
8 which, I believe, was about 1972.
5:16P 9 Q Okay. So since 1972 you have had to receive
10 either a date of occurrence or something similar in
11 purpose?
12 A Yes.
13 Q In the last 29 years have you ever heard of an
14 instance at Experian in which your cutoff date did not
15 properly correspond with the date of occurrence?
16 A I have not. If I did hear about it, the first
17 thing I'd want to do is go find what was causing it to
18 happen.
19 Q Okay. And in this case, you've done that to
20 some extent, right?
21 A I have not myself.
22 Q Okay. Do you know -- well, has Experian tried
23 to figure out, given that Unifund says that they
24 furnished 11-91, how it showed up as 7-2005?
25 A Yes, I believe that is being looked at, and we
143
1 are looking right now to see if we can go back to the
2 input tapes for a period and see.
3 Q Okay.
4 A We're looking for that particular account.
5 This account has been deleted.
5:17P 6 Q And my understanding is that those input tapes
7 do not exist based on everything we just talked about.
8 A We're still looking.
9 Q Okay.
10 A We're trying.
11 Q How long have you been looking?
12 A This time we're -- this is the second day we're
13 looking, and we have looked before.
14 Q Okay. Well, let's put this out. If Unifund
15 told you that the date of last activity was 7-98 --
16 MR. FECHER: Date of occurrence.
17 MR. DRESSLER: You're right.
18 Q If Unifund told you the date of occurrence was
19 7-98, well, then that would solve your problems, wouldn't
20 it?
21 A That would be an explanation for why that
22 credit report --
23 MR. FECHER: Objection.
24 BY MR. DRESSLER:
25 Q Shows the way it does?
144
1 MR. FECHER: Objection. Assumes facts not in
2 evidence.
3 THE WITNESS: If they told us that the date of
4 occurrence --
5 BY MR. DRESSLER:
6 Q Was 7-98 --
7 A -- was 7-98.
8 Q Then that would be a real reasonable
9 explanation for why your cutoff date is 7-2005?
10 A And it should coincide, yes.
5:18P 11 MR. DRESSLER: I need to mark one more, Young
12 E.
13 (Young Exhibit E was marked for
14 identification by the court reporter.)
15 BY MR. DRESSLER:
16 Q Show you what has been marked as Young E.
17 This is a letter from Unifund regarding Carlos Velez at
18 the top. At the bottom Unifund has stated "The credit
19 bureaus may have appended additional data without our
20 knowledge or consent which caused the account to be
21 retained in the consumers credit file."
22 Do you think that that's what happened in this
23 case?
24 MR. FECHER: Objection. Requires the witness
25 to speculate.
145
1 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of any program or
2 activity that we incorporate that allows us to append
3 additional data in there.
4 BY MR. DRESSLER:
5 Q So would you disagree with the statement in
6 Unifund's letter then?
7 A Yes, I would.
8 Q Now do you know how often Unifund updates their
9 accounts?
5:20P 10 A Yes. They should be updated on a 30-day
11 cycle.
12 Q Just so I know, there was some discussion about
13 some codes in one of those Metro I positions, and it was
14 93, 62 or 4. 93 was a collection account.
15 A 93 is a status indicating it is a collection
16 account. 62 is a status indicating that it is a paid
17 collection account, and 04 is a status which is used to
18 tell us that the account is to be deleted, and deleted
19 accounts as reported by collection agencies are bad debt
20 buyers would be those that were reported in error or
21 fraudulent.
22 Q Judi Beebe, who does she report to?
5:21P 23 A She reports to Mike Scott.
24 Q Do any of those folks report to you?
25 A No.
_________________
David Szwak
Chairman, Consumer Protection Section, Louisiana State Bar Association
Bodenheimer, Jones & Szwak, LLC
416 Travis Street, Suite 1404
Mid South Tower
Shreveport, Louisiana 71101
318-424-1400
Fax 318-221-6555 |
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146
1 Q Would you agree that you are -- we're getting
2 there -- would you agree you are the person at Experian
3 most knowledgeable about receiving and utilizing
4 subscriber data on creditors?
5 MR. FECHER: Objection. I think we agree that
6 is what he's testified to receiving but not utilizing. I
7 think he's testified the NCAC --
8 MR. DRESSLER: All right.
9 MR. FECHER: No. I mean it in that sense.
10 MR. DRESSLER: Well, let's put it this way.
11 Q Do you feel comfortable talking about the
12 computer database procedures?
13 A Yes, I do, the computer database procedures
14 that are used to convert and update ongoing information.
5:22P 15 Q Okay. Do you feel comfortable when you have --
16 like, for example, when you gave an opinion as to what
17 Unifund more likely than not told Experian as far as the
18 date of occurrence based on the deletion date appearing
19 on the consumer credit form, do you feel comfortable
20 giving that opinion?
21 A Yes, I do feel comfortable.
22 Q Do you think that that opinion is based upon
23 a reasonable degree of probability given all of your
24 experience with the database?
25 A Yes, it is.
147
1 MR. FECHER: Objection. Requires the witness
2 to speculate. This is fact testimony, not expert
3 testimony.
4 MR. DRESSLER: Just changed.
5 MR. FECHER: That's subject to my objection
6 then.
7 MR. DRESSLER: True.
8 Q Do you think there is anybody at Experian
9 that would be more qualified to give that opinion than
10 you?
5:23P 11 A If there is, we haven't found him.
12 Q Okay. I'm all finished. I cannot thank you
13 enough for your time.
14 MR. FECHER: I have a few.
15 FURTHER EXAMINATION
16 BY MR. FECHER:
17 Q Unifund prepares a tape, let's say, in March
18 and sends it to -- well, actually the information goes
19 to, in Unifund's case, goes to an entity called Disk,
20 Inc. and then goes to Experian, correct, to your
21 knowledge?
22 A I'm not familiar that they use a
23 preprocessor --
24 Q I will represent --
25 A -- or a data converter, whatever you want to
148
1 call it.
2 Q It goes to Disk, Inc. and then to Experian,
3 but there is some time lag between when the credit bureau
4 report file is actually created and then put into your
5 system, correct? Is the date it goes into your system
6 for the date first reported field?
5:24P 7 A Uh-huh.
8 Q Is that the date that the information is
9 initially put into your system or is that the date the
10 file is created?
11 A It should be the date that the file is created.
12 So, in other words, if there were a backup, let's say,
13 to December and because of validations they didn't get
14 loaded until April, you want to reflect the information
15 correctly back to that point in time.
16 Q Specifically though the date first reported
17 goes back to whenever the file was created?
18 A File activity date, file created date, yes.
19 Q You testified over some objection, and again
20 this is pending the court's resolutions of my objections,
21 that a lot of things it appeared, it appeared this or it
22 appeared that. As we sit here today, you could not say
23 yes, we reported a July 1998 date or no, we did not
24 report a November '91 date for the date of occurrence,
25 true or false?
149
5:25P 1 A That's true.
2 Q Now we talked about, and Mr. Dressler spent a
3 lot of time, on Exhibit B, Young B, about this comment
4 "This account is scheduled to continue on record until
5 July of 2005." Has Experian ever had a problem to
6 your knowledge with the credit report containing that
7 information but the actual purge date being another date?
8 A Yes, I believe so.
9 Q So it is possible that this statement here
10 "This account is scheduled to continue on record until
11 July of 2005" may not be based upon a date of occurrence
12 of July of 1998?
13 A That's true.
14 Q If a contributor does not update, for whatever
15 reason, on a 30-day cycle, when somebody requests a
16 credit bureau or credit report, your F1 database --
5:26P 17 A File 1.
18 Q -- file 1, I apologize, file 1 database is
19 going to obtain the most recent information supplied by
20 that contributor, or all contributors for that creditor,
21 unless that information is obsolete pursuant to the purge
22 process your company engages in?
23 A That is correct.
24 Q Now you testified that an account is deleted by
25 a bad debt buyer either because it was reported in error
150
1 or fraudulent.
2 A Yes.
3 Q If a bad debt buyer or any contributor reports
4 an account as deleted, that means it's not going to
5 upload into your system.
6 A That is correct.
7 Q Will it delete?
8 A Let me back that up. It's got to upload into
9 the system to effect the delete.
10 Q Right. It will upload in the system and then
11 delete it from the --
12 A It will set itself up to purge immediately.
13 Q File 1 database?
14 A Yes.
15 Q So if a tape comes in that contains a delete
16 code for an account, the processes will find the account
17 that's in there already and delete it off the account so
18 it does not report it anymore?
5:28P 19 A Yes. And the account, it has to be a status
20 04 with the special comment R. It has to be that
21 combination.
22 Q Where does the comment go?
23 A In the special comments field which is -- I can
24 show you if you want to -- it will say special comments,
25 and there are some definitions for it with an R.
151
1 Q This is in another field. I mean we have 38
2 total fields.
3 A Yes. I think it's --
4 Q Okay. Now you're getting into my file on Metro
5 II.
6 A Well, this is the Metro. May I turn this
7 around?
8 Q Yes, you may.
9 A I can find it sooner that way.
10 Q Unless it's in the first two fields.
11 A Field 19 is called the special comment field,
12 position 75 and 76, right there. The combination of
13 status 04 and special comment R causes the account to be
14 removed.
5:29P 15 Q Okay. But if a bad debt buyer was informed
16 that its trade line was being reported on an account that
17 it knew should not be reported because it was obsolete,
18 to prevent that from happening, wouldn't the bad debt
19 buyer delete the account?
20 A Yes.
21 Q So that's reason number three other than
22 reported in error or fraudulent?
23 A When you say wouldn't they delete it, how do
24 you mean they would delete it?
25 Q Change in status to 04 and the R.
152
1 A Yes.
2 Q And Unifund -- I mean Mr. Dressler said that
3 you don't have the input tapes. If we provided you with
4 the tapes, could you run them again and see if 04 pops
5 up?
5:31P 6 A We could analyze them, yes.
7 Q Could you run them again and produce a report,
8 not analyze them.
9 A Well, what type of report are you talking
10 about?
11 Q Credit bureau.
12 A If you provided the tapes from that period of
13 time, no. We would not --
14 Q How about --
15 A -- rerun them and load them back into the
16 system because they're way out of sequence.
17 Q I don't want that, but is there a test computer
18 sitting around someplace that we could load that tape up
19 on and run just for Unifund, just for Mr. Velez and see
20 what the credit record would show?
21 A Well, we could run it through an examine
22 program and an examine program would not identify that
23 particular account, but we could take a program and go in
24 and select off by name or account number that particular
25 account.
153
1 MR. FECHER: I'm going to call my client real
2 quick to see if there's any further questions. I'll do
3 it from the room, but I'm not waiving any attorney-client
4 privilege by doing so. I'm tired of walking out of the
5 room.
5:32P 6 MR. DRESSLER: That's fine. I have the
7 proverbial one more question though.
8 (Discussion off the record.)
9 MR. FECHER: No further questions at this time.
10 FURTHER EXAMINATION
11 BY MR. DRESSLER:
12 Q Mr. Young --
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q -- you said to Mr. Fecher that it was possible
15 the 7-2005 cutoff date on Young B was not based on a
16 7-98 date of occurrence. Do you recall saying that?
17 A Yes, I do.
18 Q Okay. How is that possible?
19 A About a year ago it was discovered that the
20 program that creates this output used for consumers was
21 identifying a unique situation, and the unique situation
22 was where a collection account was reported and there
23 was also a skip, or a subscriber cannot locate, reported
24 in conjunction with that collection account. And the
25 program that creates this verbiage looked at the date of
154
1 occurrence on the subscriber cannot locate account, and
2 that was a wrong date of occurrence, and it implied that
3 the collection account was in fact going to be reported
4 with an incorrect date, and that error has been fixed.
5:34P 5 Q Okay. That error existed in '99?
6 A Yes, I believe that's correct --
7 Q Okay. I take it --
8 A -- or 2000. Last year, 2000.
9 Q Well, the error had a possibility of occurring
10 in July of '99?
11 A Yes.
12 Q All right.
13 A And it was with that peculiar situation.
14 Q The situation where --
15 A A subscriber cannot locate an account.
16 Q Let me ask you something about that. How does
17 the subscriber communicate to you that they cannot locate
18 the account in the Metro I format?
19 A In the Metro format, which is called Metro I
20 here, what happens is the date a contributor reports
21 first their status 93 account indicating collection;
22 and then the following month if they're going to use the
23 same account number, they need to send in a separate
24 transaction. And the option or the alternate to that
25 was to report them under different account numbers just
155
1 to keep them separated so they can come in in the same
2 month. But generally what they will do is report the
3 93 one month which means here is an account that is in
4 collection, and then they will send in the same account
5 number the next month and indicate that it's a status 98,
6 subscriber cannot locate.
5:36P 7 Q Okay. Given Young D, which is what Unifund
8 purports it sent you at some point in time, and Young B,
9 which is a consumer credit report, and the verification,
10 Young C, is there anything in those documents that leads
11 you to believe that that may have occurred in this case?
12 MR. FECHER: Objection. Requires the witness
13 to speculate.
14 THE WITNESS: No, because I don't see a
15 subscriber cannot locate on here.
16 BY MR. DRESSLER:
17 Q Did you all have any other problems other than
18 the skip problem, I'll call it, that you just mentioned
19 with the cutoff date on the credit reports, consumer
20 reports not corresponding correctly with the date of
21 occurrence?
5:37P 22 A I'm not aware of any.
23 Q Okay. That's all.
24 MR. FECHER: Unfortunately.
25 MR. DRESSLER: We're whittling it down.
156
1 FURTHER EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. FECHER:
3 Q Yes. Sometimes will contributors submit
4 special skip tapes?
5 A Yes, separate and unique from their regular
6 monthly tape.
7 Q Right. So, you know, Mr. Dressler asked you
8 if you can tell if this problem, this unique situation
9 occurred, and you can tell that from Exhibits B, C, and
10 D?
11 A D.
12 Q Would you also need to know whether or not
13 Unifund submitted a special skip tape?
14 A I'm not familiar if they did or didn't. I
15 thought at one time they sent separate tapes in through
16 subscriber cannot locate.
17 MR. FECHER: I think I'm done.
5:38P 18 (Discussion off the record.)
19 (Deposition Exhibit F was marked for
20 identification by the court reporter.)
5:39P 21 BY MR. FECHER:
22 Q Showing you what has been marked as Exhibit F,
23 and I understand that you've never seen this document
24 before, but isn't this date here April 3rd of 1999
25 activity --
157
1 A Yes, I see it.
2 Q And if I represented to you that was our
3 request to run a "we could not locate this consumer," a
4 skip tape, would that indicate to you that we had told
5 you we couldn't locate the consumer?
6 MR. DRESSLER: I'm going to object to that.
7 MR. FECHER: I know.
8 MR. DRESSLER: I mean --
9 THE WITNESS: It could if you say so, but I
10 couldn't look at that and guarantee it. One thing I need
11 to clarify in discussing that, when a status 98 skip is
12 reported or was reported and there is also a status 93
13 on there and we discovered that situation, there was
14 not an incorrect date of occurrence for the collection
15 account. It simply was that this program that creates
16 the disclosure to the consumer read a date from the wrong
17 trade line and published this statement that says this
18 will be purged. The account would still purge correctly
19 with that date on file. Okay.
5:41P 20 MR. DRESSLER: Okay, but it just put the
21 consumer in it.
22 MR. FECHER: Are you done?
23 MR. DRESSLER: No.
24 MR. FECHER: What are you looking at me for? I
25 thought it was your question.
158
1 MR. DRESSLER: It wasn't. I'll ask. The skip
2 accounts, that means they can't locate the creditor,
3 right?
4 THE WITNESS: That means that the creditor
5 cannot locate the debtor.
6 MR. DRESSLER: There you go. Okay. So I'm not
7 going to ask him. Forget it.
8 MR. FECHER: I have to step out real quick.
9 MR. DRESSLER: I'm done.
10 (Recess.)
5:42P 11 BY MR. FECHER:
12 Q One last question.
13 A Yes.
14 Q Did you disclose to contributors that this
15 problem existed?
16 A Did we?
17 Q Yes.
18 A I'm not aware that we did.
19 Q I said one more, and I try to be a man of my
20 word.
21 MR. DRESSLER: I'm done. I'm all done.
22 MR. FECHER: I'm done.
23 MR. DOAK: Okay. Thank you very, very much.
24 MR. FECHER: I'll have a condensed version and
25 an ASCII.
159
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9 I, PATRICK YOUNG, do hereby declare under
10 penalty of perjury that I have read the foregoing
11 transcript; that I have made such corrections as appear
12 noted, in ink, initialed by me, or attached hereto; that
13 my testimony as contained herein, as corrected, is true
14 and correct.
15 EXECUTED this _______ day of ____________
16 20___, at _________________________,____________________.
(City) (State)
17
18
_________________________________
19 PATRICK YOUNG
20
21
22
23
24
25
160
1
2
3
4 I, the undersigned, a Certified Shorthand
5 Reporter of the State of California, do hereby certify:
6 That the foregoing proceedings were taken
7 before me at the time and place herein set forth; that
8 any witnesses in the foregoing proceedings, prior to
9 testifying, were placed under oath; that a verbatim
10 record of the proceedings was made by me using machine
11 shorthand which was thereafter transcribed under my
12 direction; further, that the foregoing is an accurate
13 transcription thereof.
14 I further certify that I am neither
15 financially interested in the action nor a relative or
16 employee of any attorney of any of the parties.
17 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have this date
18 subscribed my name.
19
20 Dated:____________________
21
22 _______________________________
SHERYL HILTON MEYER
23 CSR NO. 2852
24
25
161
JOB#.: 589403 RPTR: SHERYL HILTON MEYER CSR#: 2852
AGENCY: ESQUIRE
File: Hand-delivered to: ESQ/OC on 7-2-01
Deliver to: DOAK By: 5 DAYS TO TEXAS ESQUIRE
Deliver to: FECHER By: "
Deliver to: DRESSLER By: "
FINAL
SPECIAL INSTRUCTIONS: I'M TO PUT NOTE THAT TRANSCRIPT TO
BE E-MAILED TO ATTENTION NANCY HEDSTROM - CHECK WITH ERIN
AS I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THAT MEANS -- MAYBE THAT'S ESQUIRE
IN TEXAS.
_______________________________________________________
Edited: 6-29-0 Trial Date: A MONTH
Proofed: Lyle Johnson Target Date: 5-DAY TO TX
Corrected: Summary Pages: NONE
Finaled: TOTAL ALL PAGES: 161
Copied/bound: Billed:
Sent Out:
______________________________________________________
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS
GALVESTON DIVISION
CARLOS E. VELEZ, )
Plaintiff, )
vs. ) No. G-00-537
UNIFUND CORPORATION, )
Defendants. )
_____________________________)
DEPOSITION #1: PATRICK YOUNG Copies: 0&3
Taken on: 6-29-01 FRIDAY
Set at: Started at: Ended at:
1:00 P.M. 1:21 P.M. 5:42 P.M.
Taken on behalf of Plaintiffs at 5 Park Plaze, Suite
1100, Irvine, Ca.
First pg#: Last testimony pg#: Wit sigt pg#: Cert pg#:
1 159 160 161
Deponent to sign: Penalty of Perjury
Computer filename: 9280629
EXHIBITS: A - F = 17 pages
______
APPEARANCES:
For Plaintiff:
WEITINGER & DRESSLER
BY: BRETT DRESSLER
Attorney at Law
1900 North Memorial Way
Houston, Texas 77007-8319
(713) 864-1888
For Defendant Unifund:
STATMAN, HARRIS, SIEGEL & EYRICH, LLC
BY: WILLIAM B. FECHER
Attorney at Law
2900 Chemed Center
255 East Fifth Street
Cincinnati, Ohio 45202
(513) 587-4446
For Experian and Deponent:
Jones, DAY, REAVIS & POGUE
BY: JEROME R. DOAK
BY: BRIAN A. FARLOW
Attorneys at Law
2727 North Harwood Street
Dallas, Texas 75201-1515
(214) 220-3939
______________________________________________________
OTHER INSTRUCTIONS: NONE
*****************BILLING INSRUCTIONS:*****************
DEPOSITION #1: PATRICK YOUNG.
Bill DRESSLER: Original and 1.
Bill DOAK: Copy
Bill FECHER: Copy
Billing: NORMAL
Expedite charge: NO
Parking: NONE
INSURANCE INFORMATION FOR DEPO:
********DELIVERY INSTRUCTIONS****************
DEPOSITION #1: PATRICK YOUNG
Send DOAK: Original and copy with ASCII and mini.
Send DRESSLER: Copy with ASCII and mini.
Send FECHER: Copy with ASCII and mini
**HAVE TO TALK WITH ERIN, BUT I BELIEVE WE ARE TO E-TRAN
TO ESQUIRE IN TEXAS.
_______________________________________________________
INSTRUCTIONS FOR HANDLING THE ORIGINAL:
Send to Mr. Doak who will send it on to witness who will
have 30 days after receipt to have it signed and notify
all counsel.
REPORTER'S COMPENSATION STATEMENT
Reporter's Name: SHERYL HILTON MEYER
Job No. 589403
Date Taken: 6-29-01 FRIDAY
DEPOSITION #1: PATRICK YOUNG
Original and 1 charges 161 pages @
$2.30 per page = $ 370.30
Expedite Fee pages @
% =
Summary pages @
per page =
Hourly Fees (after hours - waiting)
Per Diem or Appearance Fee
Affidavit
Parking Fees
Miscellaneous
SUBTOTAL
2 additional Copies to
(based on 161 pages
@ $.75 per page) Ea. $ 120.75
Ea. $ 120.75
TOTAL
_________________
David Szwak
Chairman, Consumer Protection Section, Louisiana State Bar Association
Bodenheimer, Jones & Szwak, LLC
416 Travis Street, Suite 1404
Mid South Tower
Shreveport, Louisiana 71101
318-424-1400
Fax 318-221-6555 |
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